Are suicide bombers justified??

Israel & Palestine Forum

That is the question I put to you. Personally, I think that they are, because I am sure if they had the fancy weapons all paid for by America they would use them instead, but they dont. I think that they are oppressed and this is the only way out for them. However, I could relish a good debate, so I'd love to hear all of your opinions........

Suicide/Homicide bombers are not justified. They should be so lucky that the U.S. is still involved in this crisis. If we weren't, there would be no more PLO, Arafat or Palestine in existence.

I am a Muslim so I this question would be fitting for me to answer. In regards to suicide there is never any instance when it is justified in Islam. My heart wrenches at the plight of those poor Palestinians but they should have faith in God. Everytime they kill 10 Israeli's with a suicide bombing the Israeli's kill 100 Palestinian's. I read a quote that was interesting by a person whose name I do not recall, but he said that "I have heard of an eye for an eye, but I am continually shocked by their (Jews) habit of taking 20 eyes for one eye". This suicide bombing can not be justified because they are harming themselves more than they are helping. Not only are they giving the Israelite oppressionists opportunity to exploit them, but they also give the Jews immunity for their heinous, malicious and excessive retaliations. Of course, the question is asked then why do they do this, what is the reason? Those poor souls have been pushed to the limit of their tolerances. Everytime they try to organize themselves in defense of those Jews the Jews wipe them out with such force that they are left with nothing. These poor people are left with nothing to defend themselves, and what's worse, the world fails to take notice. The Western media has censured much of the atrocities committed by the Jews and people are not clued in those horrible acts. The Palestinians are frustrated and oppressed, they have been pushed to the limit, and their thoughts are now "I am living in a hell, it is better to die, why don't I take a few of my enemies along with me". If those people looked at the life of the Holy Prophet of Islam (may peace and blessing of God be upon him) they would find faith in his resilience. The only One that the Holy Prophet (SAW) turned to was God. Temporal powers are nothing to God. What these Palestinians should do is direct their sobs and their frustrations and their hurt to him who can solve all their problems. God-willing they shall, and through that sharp sword of supplications they shall triumph.

Islandboy let me remind you that "....But the fact remains that the Jews were certainly justified in saying that the Christian Western world subjected the Jews to such sustained horrifying cruelties that have no parallel in history. The crusades which began in the year 1095 started from France and it was probably Lord Godfrey of Bouillon who took the lead. When he and other French monarchs embarked on this campaign or the first crusade they thought of performing an act of "charity" before embarking upon such a momentous task. So Godfrey of Bouillon put forward the idea that the best charity is to avenge the crucifixion of Jesus Christ (as) by slaughtering all the Jews. Just as the Muslims have an institution of offering animal sacrifice or charity before they proceed to accomplish important tasks, similarly their idea took the form of a genocide in France. We do not find many examples of an unarmed nation being subjected to such extreme cruelties in the entire human history. So this was the so-called "act of charity" that they performed before embarking upon the first crusade. Then this became a common practice, and for the next two hundred years that before embarking on each crusade, the Jews would be randomly slain as an act of charity!" (speech given by Hazrat Mirza Tahir Ahmad in 1991)

Before making uninformed statements let me remind you that throughout history you will not find one instance of Muslim aggression on another religion. All religions enjoyed amnesty under Muslim rule. It is well-known by those who know that Jews escaped to Muslim-ruled Palestine when the Christians offered their "sacrifices". The truth of Islam will be out there for all to know soon enough. It has been prophesied that all sects of Islam will unite under the banner of Ahmadiyyat by the year 2080. If you would like more info on the Ahmadiyya Movement then click on the links in my signature.

A recent Analysis of Casualties in the Palestinian - Israeli Conflict:

http://www.ict.org.il/graphics/GraphPics/Graph2_9.gif

http://www.ict.org.il/graphics/GraphPics/Graph2_10.gif

Source (Something you wont find any Pro-Palestinians doing any time soon): http://www.ict.org.il/articles/arti...m?articleid=439

You can not sway people with misleading pie charts! Why don't you write the number of people killed not the damn percentage!

How many died is very important you deceptionist. If I eat 5 apples, 3 oranges, and 2 pears. That's 50% apples, 30% oranges, and 20% pears. If billy eats 300 oranges, 200 apples, and 500 pears it will be 30% orange, 20% apples, 50% pears. Now lets put this in this perspective. Israel kills 3000 cviliants and 7000 soldiers. Palestine kills 700 civilians and 300 soldiers. Through the use of these figures I say Israel killed 30% civilians and 70% soldiers. Then I say Palestine kills 70% civilians and 30% soldiers. What sounds worse? What actually is? That Israel kills 3000 civilians to the Palestinians 700? Who do you think you can fool? I see right through this deception. Stop concealing the true state of affairs with misleading charts! We need hard facts, you seek to fool us? No one is fooled!

Also, the fact of the matter is that all oppressed people can be classified as combatants! If we were pushed to the limit by Zionist oppression would we not do all we possibly could to help out our fellow countrymen?

Merkava, you are a deceptionist of a low-order. I see right through it without a second thought.

But such numbers hide as much as they reveal: They lump combatants in with noncombatants, suicide bombers with innocent civilians, and report Palestinian “collaborators” murdered by their own compatriots as if they had been killed by Israel. Correcting for such distortions, we can arrive at a figure of 617 Palestinian noncombatants killed by Israel, compared to 471 Israeli noncombatants killed by Palestinians (see Graph 1.2). While Israelis account for 27 percent of the total fatalities as generally reported, they represent 43 percent of these noncombatant victims. There are a number of valid ways of arriving at such corrected figures to compare the extent to which each side has been responsible for the killing of noncombatants; they all show a much more balanced picture of the conflict than the raw totals do.

I classify all people of Palestine as combatants! Obviously they are repressed and oppressed people! According to your own view, the Muslims have a right to defend themselves. These fact are still distorted. I continually have to simplify what I say so that you may understand. You bring up the same issue over again when I have already addressed it before your asking!

Why can't Palestine stop the attacks on Israel?
Simple question....

So regardless of the fact that Palestine and Israel want peace, it will never happen unless Palastine evicts Hamas?

Interesting stuff everybody, but i think we're getting away from the question. Are suicide bombers justified?
Resistance to perceived oppression IS justified, and in the words of Jefferson is even the obligation of the oppressed. However, this is not a free pass to do anything in the name of resistance.
Suicide bombers WOULD be justified, if their targets were solely military. Collateral damage is something that will happen in any conflict, but i am intersted in original intent. For me, there is a huge difference between intending to kill civilians, and accidentally killing civilians as a result of an attack on a military target. While the end result is often the same (dead innocents), it is important to consider intent just as courtrooms do when dealing with murder suspects. Without intent to kill, the act of killing is not as evil (that is the precedent in the US justice system, i assume it is similar elsewhere). Likewise, the intent to murder, combined with the act of doing it, is something i can never say is justified.
The difference between specifically attacking people on busses or sitting in restaurants is too much for me to overlook weighed against collateral civilian deaths in attacks on terrorists and militants. I would be much more sympathetic to the palestenian cause if they attacked tanks and soldiers rather than women and children.

dats a v.gd point jrkiv, i'm impressed (and that comes from some1 hoo DESPISES israel - although that despite being a Jew)

\Actually there is relatively simple principles that can be use to justify suicide bombing that are used by the rich and the powerful. Bush and Blair have used the same principles. they just wouldn't extend them in the way I want to extend them or face up to the idea that the logic and morality is the same.
Lets start with the obvious. If a powerful indevidual becomes so powerful that he is the power within a state ie a dictator then he is able to commit crimes and be free from the States or any private persons ability to bring him to trial for any crimes he commits.
Morally therefore its justifyable for an ordinary person to commit what would in normal circumstances be a crime maybe assassination in order to prevent the dictator commiting further crimes.
This is straight forward but what if a democracy places itself outside common morality and uses its power to oppress to oppress a group of its citazens or neighbours.Suppose too there is no indepentant power willing or able to protect the oppressed. Doesn't the oppressed group have the right to fight back and if its ok to attack a dictator who places himself beyond the law and morality , Doesn't the group oppressed by the democracy have the same right?
Assuming the answer is yes and leaving aside the conventional wisdom that the voters are never responsible for anythingfor anything. then the voters who are supposed to have the ultimate power over the government must carry the responsibilty for the oppression caried out by their Goernment in their name. By this arguement I suggest that it is possible to say that its ok to target the ordinary citazens who have the moral guilt for their Governments action, provdred you can reseanably believe its impossible to get them to oppose the oppresion their government is carrying out any other way.
Let me be quite clear in this, I am saying there can be no innocent citazens, and theat even those who oppse the oppression will end up in the firing line as jrkiv's 'collateral damage'.

Hey Dragon, if I may weigh in on this?

Many times I agree with your posts, but this time I think its a stretch. Never is it at any time just to intentionally target civilians.

The problem here stems from so much hatred rooted back for centuries. Does Irael oppress the Palestinians? Absolutely, but I think this is certainly a result of actions taken in recent decades. I believe if the Arabs in that region had the military Israel has and Israel was like Palestine, they would have annihilated Israel decades ago.

Now I know it's about the land over there, but I think if you are to make progress, especially now in the 21st century, you have to adapt a new way of thinking. The bombings of resturants, buses, and malls do more to hurt the Palestinian causes than to help them. The world looks at it differently so support for them is not great.

Look, I don't pretend to have the answers because there's an ugly history over in that region. I do know this though, that if Palestine hopes to have an independant state, they need to find another way. It will never happen at the rate in which they choose to handle things, even if they are right. The way to do that is to make it appear as if Israel is so unjust that the world pressures them into making changes. When you bomb a cafe full of women and children, it's hard to make that case before the world.

Bullsh!t. It is a sin to kill anybody in Islam, one of the worst things you can do is kill someone. Killing yourself is as bad as killing somebody else, so when somebody says "palestinians exploding themselves and killing jews is justified" i dont get one thing: how is it justified? Legally? No. Religiosly? No. Morally? No. Intifada started in 2000, prior to that Palestine was developing, attracting tourists and growing it's industry, and palestinians were ok to live under Israel's occupation. Then suddenly something has changed and suicide bombers become "liberators of Palestine". What all of them miss is that Palestine never existed, first time they have been offered sovereignity was by Israel.

Yes many palestine people died due to Israel's anti-terror raids, but what should Israel do if inaction causes more attacks - "they are weak, lets send some more palestinians to die" - and it retaliates - justified by all means, any country has the right to defend itself - even more attacks occur, they keep recruiting and sending young men with bombs under their clothes.

Really, i think terrorists in Palestine - aka Hamas, Islamiya, etc. earn money on killing jews, their rich muslim brothers from oil rich nations heavily support them in keeping the conflict hot. Why would they do it? Probably to keep oil prices high.

"As far as Islam is concerned, it categorically rejects and condemns every form of terrorism. It does not provide any cover or justification for any act of violence, be it committed by an individual, a group or a government..... I most strongly condemn all acts and forms of terrorism because it is my deeply rooted belief that not only Islam but also no true religion, whatever its name, can sanction violence and bloodshed of innocent men, women and children in the name of God."

Hold on, MrJudoVette. Why are you talking about Islams? We are dealing with Palestinians, who are Arabs, not muslims. Most are muslims, however you must remember that there are also a lot of christian palestinians, and even Jewish palestinians (ironically!!) So talking about Islam is a waste of time, really. They dont try and justify themselves religiously, it is because their land has been taken by the Jews, which is not rightfully theirs (ours-i am a jew), and that is the problem. Israel feels that it is above the law just because they are friends with America - this has to stop.

Dragon you have hit an all-time low. Advocating the killing of civilians because of opinions or positions they might hold? Is there any possible opinion that i might have that would warrant my murder?
All i can say is WOW. By your reasoning there is no such thing as Jewish atrocities, because it's likely the innocent palestenians that die aren't in fact innocent, because they probably support and agree with the actions of Hamas. After all, Hamas is carrying out their actions in the name of all palestenians, i guess all palestenians are culapable then. Riddiculous. Innocent civilians are innocent civilians, no matter what side they are on and no matter who they support in their respective governments.

Then the Palastinians and Israelis need to get leaders who is forward thinking and not cemented in hatred. This is the 21st century not the middle ages.
Arrafat is joke who supports Hamas and is a disservice to the Palastinian people. Sharon is a reactive president not proactive and sacrifices his own people for land.
It take two to compromise but, they have to communicate, not push buttons.

Jrkiv your post is the easiest for me to reply to so I'll reply to you first sorry your reply is wrong in addressing my point. I argued the terrorism was only an appropriate responce to oppression, and Only when no other course of resistance, had any chance of working (ok maybe I wasn't clear enough about this ). the Israelis do have alternatives the can get out of the west bank They can admit that Palestinians were there already when they started migrating. and that therefore they were abusing Arab people. don't pretend either that they are just occupying the West Bank as a defensive measure, building permminent settlements is not defensive. The U.S. did that to the plains indioans and who has the land now?
If the U.S. starts building perminent settlements in Iraq thew whole world will know what to think, you can bet that America knows better. Is there any possible positon you might hold that would warrant my murder. Yes that you were entitled to kill other people because you want to. and if I can't reason with you and persaude you to stop. Is that a good enough reason? you and I might agree not to attempt to kill one another and both of us feel safer because of it. but I cannot reason with a tiger therefore convincing it of mutaul benefit is not an option.

Dragon, all your reply does is outline the things you think Israel is doing wrong (ie building settlements), it does not answer my objection that intentionally murdering innocents is NEVER justified.
Your main argument is that when all other roads fail, then terrorism is justified. That is preposterous! Give me some reasons why any cause is worth the INTENTIONAL death of innocents? You are saying that because Palestine cannot effectively attack Israel's military then attacking its civilians is then OK. HOW CAN THE INTENTIONAL MURDER OF INNOCENTS BE OK IN ANY CIRCUMSTANCE?
What you are saying is that morality should take a back seat to special interests. You are saying palestine has a right to pursue its interests with no regard whatsoever to morality. When did any interest take precedent over right and wrong?
You also fail to consider non-violent opposition as a form of resistance. When Martin luther King and Ghandi realized they couldn't not defeat the militaries of their oppressors did they resort to terrorism? No, they organized non-violent resistance that won them the day.
You should also remember that with your argument the door swings both ways. By your reasoning i could make the same case for Israel by saying that they are justified in changing their tactics to specifically targetting civilians. After all, if their efforts to thwart the oppression of their people through the terrorism of their enemies fails by other means, then they should take the next step and target innocents. Make no mistake, having to live in fear is a form of oppression.
As for your final argument that a person is justified in being murdered if he holds the opinion of "i am entitled to kill people because i want to," i guess you believe that all jews who eat at restaurants and go to work in busses hold this opinion? It is not self-defense to bomb people in this way dragon, even IF they actually hold that opinion.
Bottom line, as a person who believes innocents should be specifically targetted for murder under some circumstances, how can you hold a position that displays the atrocities of Jews as your evidence, if the dying of innocents really isn't that big of a deal. That's a pretty blatant contradiction.

if you are claiming its a big part merkerva then you are admiting its by no means the whole reason and as for defense Israel hasn't been thereatend from the east since the 70's.
finally as usual you are applying your usual double Standard no other country in the world is allowed to occupy another country and oppress it 's people using defense as an excuse. If fact countriesd that have tried that excuse recently have been defeated at the hands of the international community South Africa Indonesia. And yes I already know you think Israelis are a superior type of humanity

OK Then it's another side of the argument - who's land is territory currently occupied by Israel, jews' or palestinians'? As far as i know, i was jews' home loooong time ago, they have their holiest sites there, they were kicked out of there and now want to go back home. The problem is, their home was occupied by palestinians while jews weren't there, ie. when they were all around the world. Who is right? I think both of them equally deserve their space, and there has to be an independent Palestine and Israel, with no Hamas, no suicide bombers, etc. Bush's road map was supposed to achieve this goal, but guess what happened - 19 Israelis killed in a bloody attack in a Haifa restaurant. Israel holds it's promises - cease fire means cease fire and nothing else, why can't Palestine?

Palestine needs a leader who will get rid of terrorist organizations, unite the nation under one flag and under the name of freedom and peace. This leader has to settle with Israel, not without West's support, in solving land debate so everybody is happy (to the most possible degree). Jew-hating teachings has to be replaced with something more appropriate in their schools, and then, in some certain period of time, peace in Middle East will take place.

Until Palestine is ruled by people who earn money on killings, peace will not exist.

What do you mean "oppress it's people"? When did Israel oppress palestinians, unless you call anti-terror raids "oppression"? Why dont you talk about all the good Israel has done for Palestine, education, technology, cultural development - all of this achieved by cooperation of israelis and palestinians - doesn't it exist? How can you call Israel the oppressor when it's the ONLY democratic country in the region? Why there is no law in Israel prohibiting muslims from working for government and there are laws against jews in muslim countries like Syria? WHY???

Maybe because Israel is NOT the oppressor?

The U.N. has recognised it is wrong. If you are so worried about the fate of lebannese under the control of Syria I suggest you write to your U.N. ambassader or Secretary of State and ask them what they are doing or what more they could be doing to get the Syrians and Israelis out of Lebannon. It is probably true that more could be done. well we have a Global Policeman and you live at global police HQ. as near as I can tell the Global Policeman decides where and how to intervene entirely on its own internal rhythmns, and has little to do with consistancy of action.
But I'm glad to see you are taking an interest in the fate of ordinary Arabs. Let me know how you get on with your quest to get more done about getting the Syrians out. You have my support.

I would like to comment on a comment that was made by MrJudoVette. He made the claim that Israel 'does not opress' the Palestinians. He could not be further from the truth. It is Israel that have practically made it legal to torture Palestinians if they suspect them of witholding information. It is Israel who are known to commit mass genocides on refugee camps on a random basis. Take the example of the Jenin massacre. Ambulances that came to Palestinians rescue were shot at. Hundreds died a terrible death. All innocent civilians. Merkava, have you ever heard about "The Lavon Affair" ?? Maybe you should do a bit of reading on your precious country.

Merkava said this in post #44 :

**** U TRUTHFUL AND ANTIZIONIST!

**** U!

U GUYS ARE ****IN SHITHEADS AND ****IN RETARDED!

"FOR EVERY 10 PEOPLE THE SUICIDE BOMBERS KILL, 100 PALESTINIANS GET KILLED" -Truthful

ARE U ****IN STUPID?

EVERY MONTH 30 ISRAELIS DIE, AND MAYBE 5 PALESTINIANS, RATIO: 6:1
AND IF THEY DO DIE THEY ARE TERRORISTS AT LEAST 4 of them and THE OTHER ONE IS A INNOCENT PEOPLE
RATIO OF INNOCENT DEATHS 30:1

U ****IN DUMBASS ANTIZIONIST,
"PALESTINE WOULDNT HAVE TO USE BOMBS IF THEY HAD RIFLES"

IM NOT SURE UR 2ND GRADE EDUCATION MUSLIM ASS WOULD KNOW ANYTHING ABOUT THE OSLO AGREEMENT AND THAT RABIN GAVE PALESTINE 30,000 RIFLES... PLUS BULLETS AND ****... OH YEAH... PALESTINE HAS NO GUNS... EVERYTIME I SEE A PICTURE OR VIDEO FOOTAGE OF PALESTINE I SEE 200 MASKED RETARDS FIRING BULLETS IN THE AIR...

ISRAEL HAS NUCLEAR BOMBS AND TANKS AND FIGHTER PLANES AND EVERYTHING! THEY COULD ****IN BOMB ALL THE ****IN ARAB COUNTRIES TO DOOM IF THEY WANTED... BUT WE HAVE A HIGHER EDUCATION THAN 2ND GRADE... WE ARE THE SMART ONES!

**** ALL THE ****IN MUSLIMS UR ALL PIECES OF DUMB **** SUCKIN, CAMEL RAPING PIECES OF ****, HOPE U GOT POISONED BY CAMEL CUM U ****IN PIECES OF TERRORIST *****ES... HOPE THE SAND CLOGS UP UR ****IN VAGINA ****IN LOW LIFE SCUM *****ES!! HOW THE **** DID U EVEN GET ONLINE! I DIDNT KNOW TENTS HAD INTERNET CONNECTION...

R U ****IN DUMB AS **** SUICIDE BOMBING IS NOT ****IN JUSTIFIED U ****ER! KILLING 20 INNOCENT PEOPLE IS JUSTIFIED! IF ISRAEL EVER HAS TO KILL SOMEONE THEYRE TERRORISTS... SO THEYRE STOPPING THE CRIME! ITS LIKE ISRAEL IS DOING DEATH PENALTY... WHILE THE ****IN PALESTINIANS ARE DOING HOMICIDE...

SEE THE DIFFERENCE, CAMELRAPER?

**** ALL THE ****ING MUSLIMS!

GO SUCK A DONKEYS **** MOTHER ****ERS!

THE ****IN PALESTINIANS DONT WANT PEACE! THEY DONT KNOW WHAT THE **** THEY WANT! WE HAD 4 PEACE AGREEMENT BUT U PIECES OF ****IN DOGSHIT JUST HAD TO KILL SOMEONE AND BREAK THE AGREEMENT... GO KILL UR OWN DAMN ****IN SELF IF ANYONE... OR A FELLOW MUSLIM... I GUARANTEE THEY WONT BE MISSED!

ILL END THIS BY SAYING:

F
U
C
K

U

M
U
S
L
I
M
S

omg!!!

firstly, u dont hav 2 DO THIS wen u r making your point. It makes u appear very stupid.

secondly, more palesinians hav died than israelis since the year 2000 (intafada) - 2000 palestinians hav died compared to 500 israelis. Whenever there is a suicide bomb killing like 10 civilians however then they respond killing about 60 of their civilians. I have heard of the saying an eye for an eye, but i hav not heard of the saying twenty eyes for an eye.

thirdly, ur gay.

fourthly, although this will shock u a lot, i am NOT A MUSLIM - I AM A JEW!!!!!! i am simply an anti-zionistic jew who hates to see israeli terrorism. However, ur remarks about muslims are unacceptable and hypocritical - i think if u want to read about true terrorism check up on the following incidents:

1) The Stern Gang
2) Irgun
3) Hagannah
4) The Lavon Affair
5) Jonathan Pollard
6) The Jenin Massacre
7) The Lebanese invasion of 1982

Anti zionist 2 points the Jenin massacre hasn't been independantly confirmed I would suggest to you if you want to believe in it thats ok but if you wannt to use it it will become a point for those who disagree with you to attack you.
second it is interesting to compare, this and the comments about muslims with the way becyt has been treated on this site Beckyt was aattacked for her obvious anti-semitism, and yet more people far more widely make anti muslim statements here sometimes as bad or worse and yet curiously the response is silence!

UNTIL THE ISRAELIES STOP STEALING LAND, PEACE IS IMPOSSIBLE. SHUT UP USA1 YOU ARE AN <REMOVED> WHO DOESNT LOOK AT BOTH SIDES. WHOSE LAND WAS PALESTINE TO BEGIN WITH? IT BELONGED TO PALESTINIANS, THEN THE JEWS CAME AND STOLE LAND. LOOK AT BOTH SIDES <REMOVED>.

DOWN WITH ****ING ISRAEL, UP WITH PALESTINE, UP WITH JEWS & MUSLIMS. I HATE ISRAEL, LOVE JEWS & MUSLIMS. ISRAEL CAN <REMOVED>.

500 ISRAELIS?/??? ARE YOU DUMB AS ****?
2592 AS OF TODAY TO BE EXACT...
AND PALESTINIANS... EVEN IF IT WAS 2000...
Wait hold on lemme calm down...
Israels target is terrorists and others who may one day bomb Israel
Palestine targets innocent people
Also, you mentioned 7 incidents where Israel had done a terror attack.
Every time there is a suicide bomber, isn't that considered a terror attack?
And do you think those 7 incidents were justifie? Probably not.
So therefore, neither are suicide bombers.
I am glad I calmed down.

ALL SUICIDE bombers are justified, as no big lieing cheating country gives them billions of tax payers money, weapons, etc. Their only way of defense is blowing them selves up into little pieces of bones and blood of flesh mixed together inorder to kill the stupid israelies who stole the land of the palestinians. WEll I say, DOWN WITH ISRAELIES, UP WITH PALESTINE, UP WITH MULSIMS & JEWS.

Pioneer, you say that the palestinians were there first, how is that so? everyone knows that the jews were there first, there's even physical proof of this (the kotel) !!

despite my anti-zionistic stance, some of the posts anti-israel supporters make on this website are just such crap! palestinians were there first, philistines are ancestors of palestinians, the 'crap list' goes on and on and on....