Its good to see that some media outlets have the balls to expose the truth, to bad this is not exposed here in the US.
Lets have a debate here on whether or not the American Government is behind 9-11. Check out the site, and also would like to hear your opinions on 9-11 in general .This is very relevant to the Iraq war forum
NYT: 9/11 Commission May Subpoena White House Files
NEW YORK (Reuters) - The head of the federal commission investigating the Sept. 11, 2001, attacks said the White House was withholding highly classified intelligence documents and he was ready to subpoena them if they were not released within weeks, The New York Times reported.
Thomas Kean, chairman of the bipartisan National Commission on Terrorist Attacks Upon the United States, said he also thought the commission would soon be forced to subpoena other executive branch agencies, the newspaper reported in its Sunday's edition. In the interview, which was conducted on Friday, he cited the Bush administration's delay in providing documents and evidence as the reason.
Earlier this month, the commission voted to subpoena the Federal Aviation Administration after it decided the agency withheld documents related to the attacks.
"Any document that has to do with this investigation cannot be beyond our reach," said Kean, the former Republican governor of New Jersey.
It was the first explicit public warning to the White House that it risked subpoena and a possible courtroom battle with the commission over access to the documents, which include Oval Office intelligence reports that preceded the attacks.
The White House did have not any immediate comment on the report.
White House spokeswoman Ashley Snee told the Times the White House believed it was being fully cooperative with the commission and that it hoped to meet all demands for documents.
The commission, created by Congress last year, must complete its work by May 2004, a deadline some members have said might be impossible to meet because of the administration's delays.
The commission is the latest body to complain about access to administration documents.
In August, the General Accounting Office, Congress' investigative arm, said Vice President Dick Cheney stymied its probe into his energy task force by refusing to turn over key documents.
Sen. John McCain has said he may subpoena the Pentagon for documents related to an Air Force plan to lease Boeing Co. 767s as refueling planes. The Arizona Republican said the Defense Department has refused to hand over relevant records.
----------------------------------------
Now you tell me whos fueling the conspiracy theory
"What are they hiding? What's on the line here is finding out everything we can about how September 11 happened so we can make sure we do everything to see that it never happens again." - Republican Sen. Chuck Hagel of Nebraska
I don't get what they expect to find. Bush and friends were not in office that long before 9/11. I mean look, the Bush administration took office in Janurary 2001 and of course it was 8 months later. I think that they should really be looking at the previous administrations records.
Originally posted by Ron Ackerman I don't get what they expect to find. Bush and friends were not in office that long before 9/11. I mean look, the Bush administration took office in Janurary 2001 and of course it was 8 months later. I think that they should really be looking at the previous administrations records.
So are you trying to say that the "conspiracy theory" would be only believable if the Clintons were involved? More Republican hypocrisy
Whoever is responsible democrat or republican should be held accountable. I think each and every one here on this board should take the same approach to the situation at hand. We should not hold a bias towards a specific political party in regards to 9/11. 3000+ plus people have died. And as a result we have 2 wars.
I'm going to ask some simple questions ok, I hope you can answer them
Why did Bush not want a 9-11 investigation?
Why is Bush trying to hide information in retrospect to the events that lead up to 9-11?
Please don't reply saying Bush didn't take these actions, because that is a clear out LIE.
Bush welcomed the 9-11 investigation, find me documentation or a report stating otherwise.
The only information that is not open to the public is confidential information that would put into danger informants. It's still in the report and will be de-classified in the future. But right now it's confidential and should not be made public.
Originally posted by Ron Ackerman Bush welcomed the 9-11 investigation, find me documentation or a report stating otherwise.
The only information that is not open to the public is confidential information that would put into danger informants. It's still in the report and will be de-classified in the future. But right now it's confidential and should not be made public.
Seems to me like he was trying to prevent an open investigation.
Seems to me like he was trying to prevent an open investigation.
http://edition.cnn.com/2002/ALLPOLI...v.terror.probe/
From the above article;
He asked that only the House and Senate intelligence committees look into the potential breakdowns among federal agencies that could have allowed the terrorist attacks to occur, rather than a broader inquiry that some lawmakers have proposed, the sources said
Tuesday's discussion followed a rare call to Daschle from Vice President Dick Cheney last Friday to make the same request.
"The vice president expressed the concern that a review of what happened on September 11 would take resources and personnel away from the effort in the war on terrorism," Daschle told reporters.
From the above article;
The report names names, gives dates and provides a body of new information about the handling of many other crucial intelligence briefings
Now back to the questions
Why did Bush not want a 9-11 investigation? He just didn't want to expend all the resourses to the investigation that could othewise be used for something better. Your own article answers the question, I suggest you read it.
Why is Bush trying to hide information in retrospect to the events that lead up to 9-11? Again your article answers the question. Out of the 800 pager report 21 pages were labeled as Confidential. Let me ask you a question. If you were a CIA informant and something in those 21 pages revealed your identity would you want the world to see it? There is no benefit in covering it up. Those who need to see it have seen it and those who don't need to see it will sometime in the future when they are de-classified
Give me one good reason why Bush wouldn't want us to know what happened on 9-11? I think we all know what happened on 9/11 so I don't get your question here.
DENY IGNORANCE
My I suggest the "radical" idea of this having nothing to do with any particular government but, as the audio files Search4Truth posted mention, something to do with an international "above government" organization.
MrJukoVette and I was talking about the bi-polar sytem, and how it is not even close to the kind of democracy the European countries have. While MrJukoVette may be happy not to have the fascist and communist parties, he was agreeing with me that there is no real Democracy in America (and in anywhere else in the world for that reason as he was arguing that the real Democracy is anarchy--absence of a government--, which I agree)
This has nothing to do with Democrats and/or Republicans.
They are serving the interest of the same group in the big picture.
It is true that they differ in the national politics, but in the International arena they are just puppets.
European governments are puppets as well.
And the Third World countries and (not)developping countries are the puppets' puppets.
The system works perfectly, and we are arguing here about what they want us to argue, pulling us from the reality.
If you guys don't feel like reading other people's opinions, which you define as crap just because you don't agree with them; why are you in these forums?
If you won't bother reading, don't bother posting.
MrJukoVette, you couldn't be more ignorant with the comments you just made. Instead of trying to prove me wrong with FACTS, you decide to make insults. You possess the traits of a dogmatic thinker, and if you aren’t aware of the term, let me educate you a little if I may.
“Dogma refers to a set of beliefs held to be true and absolute without evidence or proof. Dogmatic individuals not only subscribe to a prescribed set of beliefs, they often behave in an “arrogant” fashion towards those who believe otherwise. In our personal lives, we all know dogmatic people who are absolutely convinced that what they believe is right and that other people are wrong. They especially do not like to listen to others who have a different opinion.”
If you are so sure that the government is not behind 9-11, please check that website posted and prove the facts wrong. If this is so crazy, then wouldn’t you be able to prove us wrong easily? I would respect somebody who tried to prove this theory wrong, and if I am wrong I will admit I’m wrong!
It's all about clearing the rubbish out of the way and revealing the picture that is closest to the truth. Let's be honest, our governments are not always truthful. When there are delicate issues to be dealt with, they tread most carefully in both their words and actions, because the greatest amount of attention is directed in their way at that time. That's just typical, and not really a bad or good thing. It's just part of how they go about their office. Fine...
However, it's up to US as citizens under the leadership of our elected government, to be wary of how they lead us, and voice our well-articulated opinions clearly. This is what regulates the actions of our government; remembering that their power is SUPPOSED to come from the very people they lead. They are accountable to us, and they are to do what we generally desire of them, by way of vote only? Well, that's the main focus, but we also have the right and duty as upstanding citizens who desire freedom, justice and morality above all, to make our voices heard at ANYTIME that our government performs actions that we are not pleased with, or proud of.
Regarding 9/11... Did Bush's administration have a hand in it's EXECUTION? Probably not. In it's PLANNING? Who knows, but I would doubt that they made the plans...
Is government responsible for the 9/11 attacks? Possibly, and we shouldn't ignore this possibility just because it doesn't sit well with us. I'm more of the opinion that there is a hidden agenda behind all of it. I can't understand why 4 planes would be allowed to fly so drastically off their flight paths without alarms going off far earlier than they did, or being intercepted BEFORE any threat of real danger... With a military base in New York, it befuddles my mind how it took so long for jets to be mobilized...
It's all so weird, that there has to be reason for it...
"THE INDUSTRY OF CONSPIRACY
On September 11, 2001, pilotless airplanes were guided into the World Trade Center by homing beacons. It wasn't a plane that hit the Pentagon, but a missile. U.S. Air Force planes weren't scrambled to intercept the hijacked planes that morning because the White House was behind the events of that tragic day."
Even the site calls this a conspiracy and speculation.
"THE BIG LIE
The most infamous conspiracy theorist of them all is Thierry Meyssan."
The one who's theory is probably the dumbest one.
"His book "The Big Lie" was a bestseller in Europe ..."
No wonder.
"Meyssan claims that American Airlines Flight 77 did not hit the U.S. Defense headquarters in Washington because the size of the hole in the Pentagon was too small. (see pictures of the crash site published by Meyssan) Instead he concludes that the impact was caused by something much smaller - like a surface to air missile - that was fired by the American government itself. And the attack on the World Trade Center? Those jets were empty and controlled by radio beacons from the ground. And behind it all was George W. Bush and other U.S. officials."
Absolutely, the dumbest one.
"The fifth estate found NO credible evidence in the public domain to prove the U.S. government had any specific advance knowledge of exactly what would happen on September 11, 2001.
And many conspiracy theories seem like a waste of time. They depend on questionable characters like Mike Vreeland or involve wild allegations like those of Thierry Meyssan."
Why do you post a link to site that doesnt even support your ideas?
"If you are so sure that the government is not behind 9-11, please check that website posted and prove the facts wrong."
Does that websight say anything to disprove that the Universe is made of jelly beans? No? Well it MUST be made of jelly beans then.
I have a question, do you think a person is inocent until proven guilty, or guilty until proven inocent? Or does that depend on which party they support?
"On a Metro train to National Airport, Allen Cleveland looked out the window to see a jet heading down toward the Pentagon. 'I thought, "There's no landing strip on that side of the subway tracks,"' he said. Before he could process that thought, he saw 'a huge mushroom cloud. The lady next to me was in absolute hysterics.'"
- "Our Plane Is Being Hijacked." Washington Post, 12 Sep 2001
"I was supposed to have been going to the Pentagon Tuesday morning at about 11:00am (EDT) and was getting ready, and thank goodness I wasn't going to be going until later. It was so shocking, I was listening to the news on what had happened in New York, and just happened to look out the window because I heard a low flying plane and then I saw it hit the Pentagon. It happened so fast... it was in the air one moment and in the building the next..."
- "U.S. Under Attack: Your Eyewitness Accounts." BBC News, 14 Sep 2001
"As I approached the Pentagon, which was still not quite in view, listening on the radio to the first reports about the World Trade Center disaster in New York, a jetliner, apparently at full throttle and not more than a couple of hundred yards above the ground, screamed overhead. ... Seconds before the Pentagon came into view a huge black cloud of smoke rose above the road ahead. I came around the bend and there was the Pentagon billowing smoke, flames and debris, blackened on one side and with a gaping hole where the airplane had hit it."
- "Eyewitness at the Pentagon." Human Events, 17 Sep 2001
"Frank Probst, an information management specialist for the Pentagon Renovation Program, left his office trailer near the Pentagon's south parking lot at 9:36 a.m. Sept. 11. Walking north beside Route 27, he suddenly saw a commercial airliner crest the hilltop Navy Annex. American Airlines Flight 77 reached him so fast and flew so low that Probst dropped to the ground, fearing he'd lose his head to its right engine."
- "A Defiant Recovery." The Retired Officer Magazine, January 2002
"USAToday.com Editor Joel Sucherman saw it all: an American Airlines jetliner fly left to right across his field of vision as he commuted to work Tuesday morning. It was highly unusual. The large plane was 20 feet off the ground and a mere 50 to 75 yards from his windshield. Two seconds later and before he could see if the landing gear was down or any of the horror-struck faces inside, the plane slammed into the west wall of the Pentagon 100 yards away. 'My first thought was he's not going to make it across the river to [Reagan] National Airport. But whoever was flying the plane made no attempt to change direction,' Sucherman said. 'It was coming in at a high rate of speed, but not at a steep angle—almost like a heat-seeking missile was locked onto its target and staying dead on course.'"
- "Journalist Witnesses Pentagon Crash." eWeek.com, 13 Sep 2001
"'I mean it was like a cruise missile with wings, went right there and slammed into the Pentagon,' eyewitness Mike Walter said of the plane that hit the military complex. 'Huge explosion, great ball of fire, smoke started billowing out, and then it was just chaos on the highway as people either tried to move around the traffic and go down either forward or backwards,' he said."
- "Witnesses and Leaders on Terrorist Attacks." CNN, 11 Sep 2001
"'(The plane) was flying fast and low and the Pentagon was the obvious target,' said Fred Gaskins, who was driving to his job as a national editor at USA Today near the Pentagon when the plane passed about 150 feet overhead. 'It was flying very smoothly and calmly, without any hint that anything was wrong.'"
- "Bush Vows Retaliation for 'Evil Acts'." USA Today, 11 Sep 2001
"Aydan Kizildrgli, an English language student who is a native of Turkey, saw the jetliner bank slightly then strike a western wall of the huge five-sided building that is the headquarters of the nation's military. 'There was a big boom,' he said. 'Everybody was in shock. I turned around to the car behind me and yelled "Did you see that?" Nobody could believe it.'"
- "Bush Vows Retaliation for 'Evil Acts'." USA Today, 11 Sep 2001
"'I saw the tail of a large airliner. ... It plowed right into the Pentagon," said an Associated Press Radio reporter who witnessed the crash. 'There is billowing black smoke.'"
- "America's Morning of Terror." ChannelOne.com, 2001
"Omar Campo, a Salvadorean, was cutting the grass on the other side of the road when the plane flew over his head. 'It was a passenger plane. I think an American Airways plane,' Mr Campo said. 'I was cutting the grass and it came in screaming over my head. I felt the impact. The whole ground shook and the whole area was full of fire. I could never imagine I would see anything like that here.'"
- "Pentagon Eyewitness Accounts." The Guardian, 12 Sep 2001
"Afework Hagos, a computer programmer, was on his way to work but stuck in a traffic jam near the Pentagon when the plane flew over. 'There was a huge screaming noise and I got out of the car as the plane came over. Everybody was running away in different directions. It was tilting its wings up and down like it was trying to balance. It hit some lampposts on the way in.'"
- "Pentagon Eyewitness Accounts." The Guardian, 12 Sep 2001
"A pilot who saw the impact, Tim Timmerman, said it had been an American Airways 757. "'It added power on its way in,' he said. 'The nose hit, and the wings came forward and it went up in a fireball.'"
- "Pentagon Eyewitness Accounts." The Guardian, 12 Sep 2001
"Steve Eiden, a truck driver, had picked up his cargo that Tuesday morning in Williamsburg, Va., and was en route to New York City and witnessed the aftermath. ... He took the Highway 95 loop in the area of the Pentagon and thought it odd to see a plane in restricted airspace, thinking to himself it was odd that it was flying so low. 'You could almost see the people in the windows,' he said as he watched the plane disappear behind a line of trees, followed by a tall plume of black smoke. Then he saw the Pentagon on fire, and an announcement came over the radio that the Pentagon had been hit."
- "Sept. 11, the Day America Changed." The Baxter Bulletin, 2001
"Traffic is normally slow right around the Pentagon as the road winds and we line up to cross the 14th Street bridge heading into the District of Columbia. I don’t know what made me look up, but I did and I saw a very low-flying American Airlines plane that seemed to be accelerating. My first thought was just 'No, no, no, no,' because it was obvious the plane was not heading to nearby Reagan National Airport. It was going to crash."
- "September 11 Remembered." University Week, 4 Oct 2001
"Father Stephen McGraw was driving to a graveside service at Arlington National Cemetery the morning of Sept. 11, when he mistakenly took the Pentagon exit onto Washington Boulevard, putting him in a position to witness American Airlines Flight 77 crash into the Pentagon. 'I was in the left hand lane with my windows closed. I did not hear anything at all until the plane was just right above our cars.' McGraw estimates that the plane passed about 20 feet over his car, as he waited in the left hand lane of the road, on the side closest to the Pentagon. 'The plane clipped the top of a light pole just before it got to us, injuring a taxi driver, whose taxi was just a few feet away from my car. I saw it crash into the building,' he said. 'My only memories really were that it looked like a plane coming in for a landing. I mean in the sense that it was controlled and sort of straight. That was my impression,' he said. 'There was an explosion and a loud noise and I felt the impact. I remember seeing a fireball come out of two windows (of the Pentagon). I saw an explosion of fire billowing through those two windows.'"
- "Pentagon Crash Eyewitness Comforted Victims." MDW News Service, 28 Sep 2001
"'I glanced up just at the point where the plane was going into the building,' said Carla Thompson, who works in an Arlington, Va., office building about 1,000 yards from the crash. 'I saw an indentation in the building and then it was just blown-up up—red, everything red,' she said. 'Everybody was just starting to go crazy. I was petrified.'"
- "Terrorists Attack New York, Pentagon." Los Angeles Times, 12 Sep 2001
"I witnessed the jet hit the Pentagon on September 11. From my office on the 19th floor of the USA TODAY building in Arlington, Va., I have a view of Arlington Cemetery, Crystal City, the Pentagon, National Airport and the Potomac River. ... Shortly after watching the second tragedy, I heard jet engines pass our building, which, being so close to the airport is very common. But I thought the airport was closed. I figured it was a plane coming in for landing. A few moments later, as I was looking down at my desk, the plane caught my eye. It didn't register at first. I thought to myself that I couldn't believe the pilot was flying so low. Then it dawned on me what was about to happen. I watched in horror as the plane flew at treetop level, banked slightly to the left, drug it's wing along the ground and slammed into the west wall of the Pentagon exploding into a giant orange fireball. Then black smoke. Then white smoke."
- Steve Anderson, Director of Communications, USA Today
"Henry Ticknor, intern minister at the Unitarian Universalist Church of Arlington, Virginia, was driving to church that Tuesday morning when American Airlines Flight 77 came in fast and low over his car and struck the Pentagon. 'There was a puff of white smoke and then a huge billowing black cloud,' he said."
- "Hell on Earth." UU World, Jan/Feb 2002
"Northern Virginia resident John O'Keefe was one of the commuters who witnessed the attack on the Pentagon. 'I was going up 395, up Washington Blvd., listening to the the news, to WTOP, and from my left side-I don't know whether I saw or heard it first- I saw a silver plane I immediately recognized it as an American Airlines jet,' said the 25-year-old O'Keefe, managing editor of Influence, an American Lawyer Media publication about lobbying. 'It came swooping in over the highway, over my left shoulder, straight across where my car was heading. I'd just heard them saying on the radio that National Airport was closing, and I thought, "That's not going to make it to National Airport." And then I realized where I was, and that it was going to hit the Pentagon. There was a burst of orange flame that shot out that I could see through the highway overpass. Then it was just black. Just black, thick smoke.'"
- "Terrorist 'Situation'." American Lawyer Media, 11 Sep 2001
"And the attack on the World Trade Center? Those jets were empty and controlled by radio beacons from the ground. And behind it all was George W. Bush and other U.S. officials."
That's the truth. Sayzak you gotta be more open-minded towards bullsh!t these guys will try to pour on you.
I'm actually not a supporter of the "controlled jets" theory, or missile theory. But I strongly believe the US government assisted the terrorists (allowed them) to commit the horrible acts of 9-11.
So the terrorists were on the plane, but before YOU said that 5 of them were found alive. You dont even have a comprehensive set of arguments, just number of wild accusations and unsupported opinions. That's why nobody wants to argue with you.
Originally posted by Search4Truth MrJukoVette, you couldn't be more ignorant with the comments you just made. Instead of trying to prove me wrong with FACTS, you decide to make insults. You possess the traits of a dogmatic thinker, and if you aren’t aware of the term, let me educate you a little if I may.
“Dogma refers to a set of beliefs held to be true and absolute without evidence or proof. Dogmatic individuals not only subscribe to a prescribed set of beliefs, they often behave in an “arrogant” fashion towards those who believe otherwise. In our personal lives, we all know dogmatic people who are absolutely convinced that what they believe is right and that other people are wrong. They especially do not like to listen to others who have a different opinion.”
If you are so sure that the government is not behind 9-11, please check that website posted and prove the facts wrong. If this is so crazy, then wouldn’t you be able to prove us wrong easily? I would respect somebody who tried to prove this theory wrong, and if I am wrong I will admit I’m wrong!
You are wrong. You have also just slapped thousands of men and women in the military in their face with your treacherous wonders. I'd ban you from this forum if I could.
You are wrong. You have also just slapped thousands of men and women in the military in their face with your treacherous wonders. I'd ban you from this forum if I could.
LOL
Please explain how I slapped the entire military with my comments?
Please explain how I slapped the entire military with my comments?
If what you believe and wish were true, which it is not, it assumes that our military is/was fighting under false pretenses and for no reason. How do you think someone in the military would feel if they came across an American citizen who thinks such things as you do? Not very good.
If what you believe and wish were true, which it is not, it assumes that our military is/was fighting under false pretenses and for no reason. How do you think someone in the military would feel if they came across an American citizen who thinks such things as you do? Not very good.
Actually I want them to realize the truth, so they can get their asses out their before they get killed for false pretenses! I am trying to save their lives and am 100% pro military. They are just trying to making a living, and there is no way in hell, I would ever take my fraustrations out on them. But I do blame, our arrogant leaders who never even had the balls to participate in war.
GEORGE BUSH - AWOL
DICK CHENEY - AWOL
DONALD RUMSFLED - AWOL
JOHN ASHCROFT - AWOL
They are a bunch of hypocrites. Bush doesn't even have the decency to come visit the burials of dead soldiers who payed the ultimate price for him. The actions of this president our truly disgusting! Veterans and family members are furious with the presidents actions. That is beyond disrepectful to not visit one funeral. It has been a historic tradition for leaders of the country to take these actions. But Bush doesn't mind, as long as he doesn't have a photo shoot of him standing beside one of the funeral caskets.
"This Administration has consistently shown a great deal of hypocrisy between their talk about supporting the troops and what they've actually done . From cuts in the VA budget, reductions in various pays for soldiers deployed to the most recent things like those we've seen at Fort Stewart, where soldiers who are wounded are not being treated well. The Administration has shown a blatant disregard for the needs of the soldiers. I'm referring to the 600 wounded, ill and injured soldiers at a base in Georgia who were recently reported to be suffering from terrible living conditions, poor medical treatment and bureaucratic indifference.. During a recent stop at Fort Stewart, President Bush visited returning soldiers but had the audacity to not vist the soldiers wounded next door. " -
Seth Pollack, Chairman of Veterans For Common Sense
Well in that case, no to both of the questions. But that doesn't mean, I can't give my input on these issues. It is common sense that a president would show up to at least one funeral to pay his respects. I don't think I need to be part of the military to come to that conclusion.
There is absolutly no way that you can understand the dedication of the military to support our President.
The president visits Arlington Cemetery every year and lays a wreath at the tomb of the Unknown Soldier.
And can you name one President who has had a photo shoot next to a dead Soldiers casket? That would be very bad PR and not a very smart thing to do.
I expect you would rather have a President who did nothing. Who just lets our enemy attack us. Who would rather stand by as one of our enemies built up his weapons to attack our allies. As one of our enemies tortured and murdered his own people.
I am glad we have a President that won't stand by a let these things go on. One that shows the world what will happen if you mess with the us, the U.S.A. My friend you are in the minority, most of the U.S. support our president and are for not letting our enemies kill us.
Originally posted by Ron Ackerman I quess we can call you - AWOL
There is absolutly no way that you can understand the dedication of the military to support our President.
The president visits Arlington Cemetery every year and lays a wreath at the tomb of the Unknown Soldier.
And can you name one President who has had a photo shoot next to a dead Soldiers casket? That would be very bad PR and not a very smart thing to do.
I expect you would rather have a President who did nothing. Who just lets our enemy attack us. Who would rather stand by as one of our enemies built up his weapons to attack our allies. As one of our enemies tortured and murdered his own people.
I am glad we have a President that won't stand by a let these things go on. One that shows the world what will happen if you mess with the us, the U.S.A. My friend you are in the minority, most of the U.S. support our president and are for not letting our enemies kill us.
Well you could call me AWOL, if I was actually in the military
I agree with you Ron on some concepts. I always was with the concept, that the military should always support the president. But that changed when Bush came along. Why should they support a war based on lies? There lives are being put at risk here! They are not machines that you unleash in any situation. They should be only used when needed. Iraq wasn't a threat to America let alone its neighbors.
Ron, I would rather have a president who works with the world, attacks countries that are actually threats to us, and one who doesn't let his personal/financial interests direct the foreign policies of our country. Bush on the contrary has made this world a much more dangerous place. Every country in the world (ally or enemy) now views the United States as a potential threat in the future. As a result, we see countries in a strong rush to produce or obtain nuclear arsenal. Terrorism is much more serious than it was post 9-11. The heart of terrorism is the people, not the government. Bush has just aggravated more muslims, and gave them a reason to adapt into radical thinking of extremism. Consequently we have created generations of terrorists to cause havoc in the world.
Don't get it confused Ron. The enemies that killed us, had nothing to do with Saddam Hussein. George Bush said it himself. So instead of capturing Osama Bin Laden who is the “supposed” man who murdered 3000 people. We attack Saddam Hussein
Search, you are not only open, honest, and straightforward, you are ballsy as h3ll. I like it. Keep it up. I would add something to your argument, but you seem to be doing quite well on your own. For now, Ill just read
Yes, truely impressive given the amount of facts and arguments Search brings us.
Just a comment anyway: I don't think the US is viewed as a threat here in Europe; your country is and remains an ally. However, if new military actions were launched, I don't know how this could change.
The people are confused. We make a clear difference between the Americans, and the people in office; what is new and worrying is the kind of propaganda against allies who disagree. This is really disparaging.
All of a sudden, the allies who disagree aren't really full allies... That's crazy. Allies aren't always going to agree on how to take action, and in my view, the US was too pushy regarding this issue.
There was an incident in the states shortly after France chose not to back the US, where a family of french heritage (but living in the US for something like 40 years...) had their house vandalized, and their garage had cruel remarks that were something to the effect of, "Go back to France...". Hmmm... Patriotism? Or just blatant bullying that is motivated out of stupidity????
Originally posted by Wolf_eyes Search, you are not only open, honest, and straightforward, you are ballsy as h3ll. I like it. Keep it up. I would add something to your argument, but you seem to be doing quite well on your own. For now, Ill just read
quote:
Originally posted by JY_French Yes, truely impressive given the amount of facts and arguments Search brings us.
Testimonials. "Amount of facts" LOL!
quote:
Originally posted by Search4Truth NEW MOVIE UP regarding 9-11
Actually I want them to realize the truth, so they can get their asses out their before they get killed for false pretenses! I am trying to save their lives and am 100% pro military. They are just trying to making a living, and there is no way in hell, I would ever take my fraustrations out on them. But I do blame, our arrogant leaders who never even had the balls to participate in war.
GEORGE BUSH - AWOL
DICK CHENEY - AWOL
DONALD RUMSFLED - AWOL
JOHN ASHCROFT - AWOL
They are a bunch of hypocrites. Bush doesn't even have the decency to come visit the burials of dead soldiers who payed the ultimate price for him. The actions of this president our truly disgusting! Veterans and family members are furious with the presidents actions. That is beyond disrepectful to not visit one funeral. It has been a historic tradition for leaders of the country to take these actions. But Bush doesn't mind, as long as he doesn't have a photo shoot of him standing beside one of the funeral caskets.
"This Administration has consistently shown a great deal of hypocrisy between their talk about supporting the troops and what they've actually done . From cuts in the VA budget, reductions in various pays for soldiers deployed to the most recent things like those we've seen at Fort Stewart, where soldiers who are wounded are not being treated well. The Administration has shown a blatant disregard for the needs of the soldiers. I'm referring to the 600 wounded, ill and injured soldiers at a base in Georgia who were recently reported to be suffering from terrible living conditions, poor medical treatment and bureaucratic indifference.. During a recent stop at Fort Stewart, President Bush visited returning soldiers but had the audacity to not vist the soldiers wounded next door. " -
Seth Pollack, Chairman of Veterans For Common Sense
YEAH, THATS HOW IT REALLY IS!
Too bad you weren't alive during the Vietnam era. You'd be more useful then, but you are just a hater who is seen right through.
Actually I want them to realize the truth, so they can get their asses out their before they get killed for false pretenses! I am trying to save their lives and am 100% pro military. They are just trying to making a living, and there is no way in hell, I would ever take my fraustrations out on them. But I do blame, our arrogant leaders who never even had the balls to participate in war.
GEORGE BUSH - AWOL
DICK CHENEY - AWOL
DONALD RUMSFLED - AWOL
JOHN ASHCROFT - AWOL
They are a bunch of hypocrites. Bush doesn't even have the decency to come visit the burials of dead soldiers who payed the ultimate price for him. The actions of this president our truly disgusting! Veterans and family members are furious with the presidents actions. That is beyond disrepectful to not visit one funeral. It has been a historic tradition for leaders of the country to take these actions. But Bush doesn't mind, as long as he doesn't have a photo shoot of him standing beside one of the funeral caskets.
"This Administration has consistently shown a great deal of hypocrisy between their talk about supporting the troops and what they've actually done . From cuts in the VA budget, reductions in various pays for soldiers deployed to the most recent things like those we've seen at Fort Stewart, where soldiers who are wounded are not being treated well. The Administration has shown a blatant disregard for the needs of the soldiers. I'm referring to the 600 wounded, ill and injured soldiers at a base in Georgia who were recently reported to be suffering from terrible living conditions, poor medical treatment and bureaucratic indifference.. During a recent stop at Fort Stewart, President Bush visited returning soldiers but had the audacity to not vist the soldiers wounded next door. " -
Seth Pollack, Chairman of Veterans For Common Sense
YEAH, THATS HOW IT REALLY IS!
You are the one with no balls who doesn't recognize that the deaths occuring in Iraq are true sacrafices and only a small price to pay in the bigger picture of things. Death and casualties are things that war brings and are acceptable, realized and moved on from but never forgotten.
Freedom has a cost. Unlike other countries, America is willing to die for the freedom for those who can't deliver it themselves.
These heroes will never be forgotten. If you think that our leaders don't have nightmares about this, you are ignorant.
If you think that our troops don't feel this way, you are ignorant to that fact too.
Freedom and Democracy will win out over Islamic Fundamentalism and Communism. Those of us who strive to be free will die for our future generations.
This may very well be the 100 years war, unless of course those countries that ignore the threats wake up.
Search,
You need some serious help there dude. You are delusional at best.
Just what are you trying to accomplish with this crap? You make absolutely no sense. What's next, Bush assassinated JFK? After all he did live in Texas. You think there's a connection? In your mind, probably so.
You may convince some people of your conspiracies but , they are as delusional as you are.
Originally posted by USA1 Search,
You need some serious help there dude. You are delusional at best.
Just what are you trying to accomplish with this crap? You make absolutely no sense. What's next, Bush assassinated JFK? After all he did live in Texas. You think there's a connection? In your mind, probably so.
You may convince some people of your conspiracies but , they are as delusional as you are.
USA1, evidently our unbiased, anything-but-extreme left wing "moderator" wears his dunce cap upon a very troubled brow.... God love him and keep him and give him a life—a happier one
mod·er·a·tor (n)
One that moderates, as: One that arbitrates or mediates. [/B][/QUOTE]
Originally posted by USA1 Search,
You need some serious help there dude. You are delusional at best.
Just what are you trying to accomplish with this crap? You make absolutely no sense. What's next, Bush assassinated JFK? After all he did live in Texas. You think there's a connection? In your mind, probably so.
You may convince some people of your conspiracies but , they are as delusional as you are.
Originally posted by sordidmesh You are the one with no balls who doesn't recognize that the deaths occuring in Iraq are true sacrafices and only a small price to pay in the bigger picture of things. Death and casualties are things that war brings and are acceptable, realized and moved on from but never forgotten.
Actually, isn't it me who keeps reminding you people about the deaths? Yes those deaths are only part of a bigger picture....too bad it has nothing to do with peace. Obviously I realize death is part of war. But when the war is based on lies, each death means a lot more because it shouldn’t of happened.
Freedom has a cost. Unlike other countries, America is willing to die for the freedom for those who can't deliver it themselves.
These heroes will never be forgotten. If you think that our leaders don't have nightmares about this, you are ignorant.
If you think that our troops don't feel this way, you are ignorant to that fact too.
Freedom and Democracy will win out over Islamic Fundamentalism and Communism. Those of us who strive to be free will die for our future generations.
This may very well be the 100 years war, unless of course those countries that ignore the threats wake up..
Let me get this straight ok. You people support bringing freedom to Iraq, but on the other hand support taking away certain freedoms at home (patriot acts 1-2 and the upcoming 3). Does the right wing philosophy involve hypocritical statements for every issue? Bush doesn't have any nightmares about how many troops die. If that was true, he would of sacrificed his Halliburton contracts so we could have UN troops in Iraq. Those actions couldn't better summarize why we our really in Iraq.
Freedom & Democracy will eventually prevail. But the war will last much more longer thanks to this administration. We could of eliminated terrorism directly after 9-11. These incompetent leaders, blew there chance. They had the entire world behind them ready to help them in anyway possible to defeat terrorism. 2 years after 9-11, we our now the most hated country in the world. It will probably go down as the worst foreign relations disaster in history. And they hate us for good reason. Don't kid yourself, thinking Iraq is stopping terrorism. If anything, it is doing the exact opposite. Can’t you people think for yourselves?. Other than sayaz21, and Charles. I've never heard any of you people disagree once with Bush. You can only conclude its a lack of intelligence or you've been brainwashed.
Search,
You need some serious help there dude. You are delusional at best.
Just what are you trying to accomplish with this crap? You make absolutely no sense. What's next, Bush assassinated JFK? After all he did live in Texas. You think there's a connection? In your mind, probably so.
You may convince some people of your conspiracies but , they are as delusional as you are.
What am I trying to accomplish? Just trying to show that our leaders didn’t do everything possible to prevent 3000+ people from dying. The nerve of me, for questioning why 9-11 happened. You should watch the CBC video I posted. A former LAPD investigator, says you have to put your emotions aside and look at the facts. Maybe you people should take this advice. One question ok, other than the so “called” terrorists” Who benefited most from 9-11?
Stop trying to convince US of YOUR beliefs. It won't work.
Benefit from 9-11? You are irrational too. I think only you benefited. Now you can contrive conspiracy theories till you hearts content.
Think for ourselves? Why do you leep pushing your beliefs on US? If you feel you are the only one who is right here, you have a long hard frustrating life ahead of you dude.
Trying to accomplish? What you are trying to accomplish is to make everyone look at the world the way you do. Right or wrong, it won't work. Your search for truth is more search for someone to blame for something you can't understand. It's clear you are on a mission. What that is, nobody knows. If you put half your effort into solution finding instead of finger pointing, you might discover that all is not as bad as you think it is.
Originally posted by USA1 Stop trying to convince US of YOUR beliefs. It won't work.
Benefit from 9-11? You are irrational too. I think only you benefited. Now you can contrive conspiracy theories till you hearts content.
Think for ourselves? Why do you leep pushing your beliefs on US? If you feel you are the only one who is right here, you have a long hard frustrating life ahead of you dude.
Trying to accomplish? What you are trying to accomplish is to make everyone look at the world the way you do. Right or wrong, it won't work. Your search for truth is more search for someone to blame for something you can't understand. It's clear you are on a mission. What that is, nobody knows. If you put half your effort into solution finding instead of finger pointing, you might discover that all is not as bad as you think it is.
USA1
In my last post, I said "think for yourselves" so wouldn't that contradict what you just said on how I'm trying to force my beliefs on the members. What I'm trying to accomplish is nothing. Just inform the people, on what really is going on. Exposing our leaders lies, isn't forcing beliefs on people. Can you please clarify the comment you wrote on "If you put half your effort into solution finding instead of finger pointing" Thanks alot, and can we stop discussing me and get back to the issues of 9-11. Why don't all of you just try to prove me wrong and end this matter. That would be more productive.....don't you think?
Unlike other countries, America is willing to die for the freedom for those who can't deliver it themselves.
Biggest horse crap ever told in this thread.
I will agree with the fact that the coalition forces have a decent amount of followers when they talk about "liberating Iraq from Saddam." But what those kids are dying for in Iraq is the corporate interest.
quote:
These heroes will never be forgotten.
Yeah, we still cherish our Vietnam and 1st Gulf War vets every single day.
quote:
If you think that our leaders don't have nightmares about this, you are ignorant.
Do you know this for fact? Did you personally talk to them and found out they were lacking sleep because innocent people die everyday? If no, you are ignorant to that fact too.
I personally believe, the only nightmare Bush and Co. is having is about the elections and power. They don't give a rat's a$$ about people of this country. If they did, they would provide better health insurance and education. They would see the hunger and the jobless rate growing here, before they would send young Americans to "die for the freedom for those who can't deliver it themselves."
Give me a break!
quote:
If you think that our troops don't feel this way, you are ignorant to that fact too.
The coalition soldiers in Iraq are having dreams about home, nightmares about not to be able to see their loved ones again.
quote:
Freedom and Democracy will win out over Islamic Fundamentalism and Communism.
Democracy will hopefully win over Islamic Fundamentalism.
I agree.
But what is it with you and MrJukoVette?
Guys, communism is GONE. It is not coming back. Let your paranoia go.
Also, do you have any idea about the US governmentS backed plan of "Green Belt against Red Belt"?
Throughout the years, Several US governments have been backing the muslim fundamentalist (green belt) in certain areas of the world in order to create a "bumper effect" against communist regimes (red belt).
We can give the example of Ossama bin Laden in Afghanistan, we can talk about the Iran contra where an Islamic Fundementalist state was backed against a Socialist Dictator, where we were also backing the dictator! So honest, such a clean government, which puts American people first(!) at all times. Give me another break!
We can also talk about the US backed military coup in Turkey in 1980 where the road to "freedom" of radical Islam was open in that country.
Look at the current situation there now. Islamic Fundamentalist are in power and they are changing (at least trying really hard) the laws, in order to open more Islamic schools etc.
Now that the communism is gone, US is dealing with the beast it created against an old enemy.
quote:
Those of us who strive to be free will die for our future generations.
Are you striving to be free?
I assume you are.
Are you willing to die for our future generations?
Or are you just BSing?
quote:
This may very well be the 100 years war, unless of course those countries that ignore the threats wake up.
There are many threats in the world when you consider different points of view.
Here's a link about the "most dangerous threats" in the world. It is not factual, it is about "feelings" of people in Europe. It is a survey. Their opinion is that USA is the fourth biggest threat in the world... The first? Israel.
Originally posted by USA1 keremiko,
Now the real feelings come out. You feel the Jews are a threat? To who? Islam?
Get a shovel.
USA1, you are funny.
Where on earth did you get that I was talking about my feelings?
If you would take the time, and read the article that is at the end of that link (I know it's hard to click, it's even harder to read!) and it is from Reuters, you would see what I was talking about.
But no!
Did you read my entire post?
Did you read where I said we have created the beast that we are fighting against? The beast is the Radical Islam.
In the article, they are talking about a survey where people in Europe felt that Israel was the biggest threat. Therefore, this is just the "feeling" of those people, not mine, and as I stated earlier, it is not factual.
You said:
quote:
This may very well be the 100 years war, unless of course those countries that ignore the threats wake up.
All I am saying is, people in Europe, feel different than you do.
You think the people in the countries where there is a US and/or UK Army presence are ignoring the threats. But what you see as a threat, is n ot a threat for them. So they are not ignoring the threat, they are fighting against the thing they feel threatened by: USA, Israel, Western powers; and now that idiots are being quoted talking about Holy War or Crusades, they will also see the christianism as a threat.
I may see Jack as a threat, but Jack's family don't see him as a threat.
You know that there are other opinions on Earth, and yours is not particularly the "right" one all the time.
You should try to open your mind a little man, read what is posted. I have no problem with anybody based on their ideology, religion, ethnicity etc.
I do have problems with idiots though. I don't like them, so I don't talk to them. So if you could abstain yourself from being one, I would love to continue this debate.
Here's a link about the "most dangerous threats" in the world. It is not factual, it is about "feelings" of people in Europe. It is a survey. Their opinion is that USA is the fourth biggest threat in the world... The first? Israel.
I hope they continue to ignore us and never wake up, what do you say?
I read the results of the survey with great interest. It was quite surprising for me to hear that Israël and the US were considered as threatful countries. I wonder how the questions could have been misleading.
Anyway, an Israëli official told they intended to send to display in European capitals a bombed out bus. Well, it is useless: we know very well what a bombed out bus, train, or plane looks like. We have already been striken by numerous terrorists attempts of this kind with tens of casualties. Last ones occured in Paris commuter trains in 1995.
The lowest frequency of such events is the only difference.
Here's a link about the "most dangerous threats" in the world. It is not factual, it is about "feelings" of people in Europe. It is a survey. Their opinion is that USA is the fourth biggest threat in the world... The first? Israel.
I hope they continue to ignore us and never wake up, what do you say?
I read the results of the survey with great interest. It was quite surprising for me to hear that Israël and the US were considered as threatful countries. I wonder how the questions could have been misleading.
Anyway, an Israëli official told they intended to send to display in European capitals a bombed out bus. Well, it is useless: we know very well what a bombed out bus, train, or plane looks like. We have already been striken by numerous terrorists attempts of this kind with tens of casualties. Last ones occured in Paris commuter trains in 1995.
The lowest frequency of such events is the only difference.
I think Iraqis did, thanks to 9/11 they got freedom they havent had in the last 30 years. Also Afghanis did, getting rid of one of the most oppressive dictatorships.
I read the results of the survey with great interest. It was quite surprising for me to hear that Israël and the US were considered as threatful countries. I wonder how the questions could have been misleading.
Anyway, an Israëli official told they intended to send to display in European capitals a bombed out bus. Well, it is useless: we know very well what a bombed out bus, train, or plane looks like. We have already been striken by numerous terrorists attempts of this kind with tens of casualties. Last ones occured in Paris commuter trains in 1995.
The lowest frequency of such events is the only difference.
I agree with the possibility that the question could be misleading.
The question was formulated as follows:
"For each of the following countries, tell me if in your opinion, it presents or not a threat to peace in the world."
And from there, the participant had to check "YES" next to the country he/she thought was a threat.
Here are the results:
Israel - 59% said it is a threat
Iran - 53%
North Korea - 53%
USA - 53%
Iraq - 52%
Afghanistan - 50%
Pakistan 48%
Syria - 37%
Libya - 36%
Saudi Arabia - 36%
China - 30%
India - 22%
Russia - 21%
Somalia - 16%
EU - 8%
A very detailed--128pages-- report can be found in pdf format at the following link:
I agree with the possibility that the question could be misleading.
The question was formulated as follows:
"For each of the following countries, tell me if in your opinion, it presents or not a threat to peace in the world."
And from there, the participant had to check "YES" next to the country he/she thought was a threat.
Here are the results:
Israel - 59% said it is a threat
Iran - 53%
North Korea - 53%
USA - 53%
Iraq - 52%
Afghanistan - 50%
Pakistan 48%
Syria - 37%
Libya - 36%
Saudi Arabia - 36%
China - 30%
India - 22%
Russia - 21%
Somalia - 16%
EU - 8%
A very detailed--128pages-- report can be found in pdf format at the following link:
There is nothing surprising, at all, with that survey.
Given the massive Muslim infiltration of Europe, the anti-semitism, and all of the leftists... of course Israel would be coined the biggest threat to peace.
There is nothing surprising, at all, with that survey.
Given the massive Muslim infiltration of Europe, the anti-semitism, and all of the leftists... of course Israel would be coined the biggest threat to peace.
"America and a broad coalition acted first in Afghanistan, by destroying the training camps of terror, and removing the regime that harbored al Qaeda. In a series of raids and actions around the world, nearly two-thirds of al Qaeda's known leaders have been captured or killed, and we continue on al Qaeda's trail. We have exposed terrorist front groups, seized terrorist accounts, taken new measures to protect our homeland, and uncovered sleeper cells inside the United States."
Still wondering who benefitted from 9/11 act, Search for "Truth"?
"For a generation leading up to September the 11th, 2001, terrorists and their radical allies attacked innocent people in the Middle East and beyond, without facing a sustained and serious response. The terrorists became convinced that free nations were decadent and weak. And they grew bolder, believing that history was on their side."
There is nothing surprising, at all, with that survey.
Given the massive Muslim infiltration of Europe, the anti-semitism, and all of the leftists... of course Israel would be coined the biggest threat to peace.
--JV
I agree with you to some point.
If you go and check the numbers of this report (categorized by countries), your theory may actually find a lot of support.
In the mean time, Israel and USA do not particularly help the "world peace" either. You may argue that what US is doing in Iraq and in Afghanistan is ultimately going to bring peace to the world, and therefor US should not be considered as a threat.
I can believe in an individual's sincerity in that kind of a statement.
I wouldn't agree with it though.
US did disturb the world piece even further in Iraq. It may not be as much of a threat as North Korea and Iran (the same percentage of people chosed them along the US) for a Mexican, but it is definitely a very considerable threat for other countries in the Middle East.
I also don't think criticizing Israel and seeing it as a threat to the world peace, should be considered as anti-semitism. I criticize the approach of the US government to foreign politics AND to its own people's needs; am I anti-american (anti-myself, anti-mywife and so on)?
No. I only do not agree with its politics.
You may or not agree with a governments politics, you may think that government is a threat; that does not make you anti anything.
