Abortion, murder.....or not?

Abortion Forum

Is taking a human life justified? Who decides wether or not a human being has the right to live?

Some say abortion is appropriate and justified in order to remove a child. Others call it murder and say it's no different then shooting someone on the street.

Anna Somebody is married to Joe Shmoe, they find out from the doctor that their son if/when born will have no use of his right arm be in constant yet mild pain and has about no chance of living past three.

Would it be murder to ease the already dead childs life by letting it go painlessly without regret?

Or should the child be born no matter what the conciquence and suffer for short span of his life?

Questions nobody should have to answer....

-- So is abortion murder, or justified?

Abortion is a choice, if you don't like it, don't have one. If your religion or beliefs are against it, then don't have one.

I can't speak for anyone else... nor do I think that other people should either. It's a personal choice. I personally don't agree with abortion unless my life would be in danger. Other than that, if I've played the game and I got pregnant, than it's the price that I must pay. If I didn't want to be a mother, I would look into having the child adopted. I just could not, in good conscience, abort a living being that I have helped make.

Illuminate, you are missing the point.
What if i were to say "infanticide is a choice, if you are against it don't kill your infants." What would you say to that? You would have to explain how an infant is different from an unborn baby ... good luck.

4 years ago I had an abortion after becoming pregnant by an incredibly abusive man. Am I sorry I did it? Yes. Am I also grateful I did it? Yes. Abortion is an incredibly difficult decision to make and live with. Unless you have walked in those shoes or been in that situation, you really cannot understand fully what a woman goes through when making that decision. To call it murder or infantcide only pours salt on the wound. It is a personal choice and issue. I just hope no one on here ever has to face that decision and if you are, I hope you have the support of friends and family, and never have to deal with being called a "whore, slut, b!tch, murderer or sinner". Because God already knows how difficult the situation is for a woman.

Chelktty... I'm sorry to hear that you've been through that. I can't tell you that I know what that's like. I had a miscarriage, and that was extremely hard enough. Like I said, I just don't think that I could do it. But, every person has the right to the choice that they make regarding this. You are not a bad person... or any of those other things.

I'm sorry if my position makes you feel bad chelk, but people who contend that it's a choice and nothing more don't consider the child. I'm sure I can't relate with you on your situation, but i know that you can't relate with the child in his/her situation. Not only did he/she die a very gruesome death, but he/she had their 1 chance at life stolen from them. That child, that individual, will never come again. I'm not gonna sugar-coat anything here.
My uncle is sterile, and he and his wife tried to adopt for 20 years, but there just wasn't the opportunity. A lot of families faced with his situation adopt children from overseas, and this in a country that has millions of abortions a year.
I'm sorry for the pain you feel chelk, but i will not refrain from calling abortion murder when that is what it is.

Im not missing the point jrkiv.. I just dont agree with yours. The thing about the abortion issue is no one ever changes their minds. And Im assuming you are a man right? Men just have no business telling a woman what her choice should be, period. You cannot carry/conceive so leave it be. Your feelings and religious beliefs are your own, someone else has different ones. What men just dont get is that a WOMAN goes through the process, WE bring a child to life, WE consent to having a child in our womb, WE have to go through the birth process alone. Men just cant help in that department.

I personally believe that partial birth should not be allowed. If you cant make up your mind up early enough to bad...

As far as adoption goes, there are plenty of kids out there waiting to be adopted here in the US. Thats what tics me off about people going overseas. If they werent so focused on getting a white newborn child they could have a baby from the US. My aunt works as a social worker. She sees pleanty of minority children in the system waiting to be adopted. Its sad actually...

So by that token Jrk, if you had a family member or friend of yours that was beaten, raped and the result of that rape was a pregnancy, and to ensure that there was no demon seed or remnance of the evil person who committed that crime...that friend or family member had an abortion, you would look them in the eye and tell them its murder. Nice. I'm glad you are not in my support circle. Now go thump your bible, but unless you've never been there, you're ignorant to the circumstances of that difficult decision.
As for the unborn's life, I believe they do get a chance. I believe the soul goes on forever and that life recycles.

P.S. Thanks KJ for your respectful way of expressing your oppinion without coming off as fanatic and radical. I utterly respect your postings and your ability to to logically express yourself without purposely harming the feelings of others. You are empathetic and kind. Thanks again!

I see your point of view here illuminate, but let's try to focus on the objective right or wrong of the issue, instead of focusing on who is making what arguments. My gender here is immaterial, as is anything about me as a person, we're dealing with an issue here and arguments exist apart from the people who make them.
So for the sake of argument, would you have a problem with a man telling a woman not to steal? Do you have a problem with women telling men not to rape? I'm assuming not, because those things are wrong no matter what gender, race, person, etc is doing it. Would you consider the act of rape somebody's personal choice and nobody else can tell that person not to rape anybody? Of course not, that's riddiculous.
The argument that abortion is a choice and if you don't agree with it don't have one is just as ludicrous. Every time somebody makes that "choice," an innocent human being dies. I HAVE A RIGHT to do everything i can to not let that happen, just as i HAVE A RIGHT to tell people that they cannot rape anybody because it is wrong. There is absolutely no difference here.
Now, some would say that rape has a victim and abortion does not, but that becomes a different argument than the one you are making illuminate, and quite franky, that is the only direction you can take this debate. I just want you to realize that you're point of view in this matter has no foundation, it sounds more like you have some beef against religion rather than any real position on this issue.

Hey Chelk,
Thanks for showing your ignorance in this matter. At what point in this debate did i thump a bible? You're the one who advocates the killing of babies because of your religious belief that "lives get recycled." And what does the situation of how the pregnancy occurred have anything to do with the humanity of the baby in the womb? Are babies traditionally conceived human but rape babies are not? Just think about what you are saying here and try to have a little consistancy.
A baby that is the result of rape is now some sort of demon seed? Does it have horns and everything? Come on, it's an innocent child that deserves a shot at life just like anybody else, it doesn't matter who its father is. Now, you think i'm being terribly insensitive here, but just think about what you are advocating. Murdering a child conceived in rape is an acceptible way to do what? Get the rapist back? "you raped me, but i sliced up your baby in my womb?" The baby is guilty of NOTHING. For me to say abortion is permissible in this case would make me a hippocrite, i do not wish to join your ranks.
I'm truly sorry for any women who have been raped, but why is there this great outcry to add a second victim to the crime? Carry it to term and put it up for adoption, you'll never have to see it again. Or better yet, raise him/her up and love them so that they'll never committ the terrible crime that happened to you.

You're welcome, Chelktty. I see no reason, personally, to jump on someone for what they've gone through. Who knows, if that happened to me, I might be in your shoes, doing what you did. I just can't say, because I haven't experienced a pregnancy as the result of being raped. What you went through was very traumatic, and something that you can't understand unless you've been through it as well. That, unfortunately, is something that I have experienced. I'm just lucky that there was no pregnancy involved.

My thoughts on abortion aren't about religion or anything like that. Mine are just based on what I feel. My heart tells me that I couldn't do something like that. But, as I just said... until each person is faced with that decision, you just don't know WHAT you would do.

I do want to say to illuminate that it does NOT matter if you're a man or a woman. A man has just as much right to express his feelings over this. It does involve men too. Just because THEY don't get pregnant, carry the child, give birth, does not mean that they don't have a stake in this issue.

I have no beef with religion, I have beef with people thinking that because their religion says they are right, everyone else is wrong and going to hell.

If you have such a right (to stop women having abortions), what are you doing to help the thousands of children being abused and neglected? Are you taking care of them? Because you know whats going to happen if you make abortions illegal? Think about it.. Force a woman to have a child she doesnt want and the US will be filled with abused neglected poverty stricken children (like there isnt enough now)... Pro-lifers keep asking about that innocent life that was snuffed out, but what are they doing for the innocent lives LIVING in poverty, in an abusive home, or all the single parents not getting support like they should be? Are you doing anything to help THEM? When was the last time you fostered or adopted an unwanted child?

I feel strongly on this issue, and you have no basis for calling my BELIEFS unfounded and having no foundation. Thats YOUR feelings. Therefore you will not make me "see" things your way. Which is the whole point in me making the statment.. NO one really changes their mind on the abortion issue anyway. I have very valid reasons that abortion should remain a choice.

Oh, and as for me being a 'fanatic,' how is it fanatical to believe that abortion is wrong? Do you realize that over half the country agrees with me? Man, there are a lot of fanatics running around out there.
I will not carry the labels and slander that extreme liberals put on people who hold my position. If you disagree with me, then answer my arguments, don't slander.

There is also an emotional aspect to being raped her jrkiv that you are not even taking to consideration. To force a woman to expect to be reminded of being brutalized EVERY DAY by bringing to term a baby is just plain cruel.

Once again, instead of answering my argument Illuminate, you have lashed out at me ... *sigh* what can i do?
But, since all i have is a personal attack to work with, then i guess i'll do my best. I'll tell you what i do for abused children, i make child abuse illegal and support federal programs that aid these children. I am trying to help the unborn by making abortion illegal.
But lets go off to the side for a moment. You are advocating we kill all of these children before they are born, because a percentage of them may be abused. How are you doing that child a favor? I have 3 different friends who had abusive parents, and i can tell you they have a passion for life that equals my own. How would we have done them a favor by taking away their only chance?
And as for calling your beliefs unfounded, i can do that because i pointed out how they are illogical and inconsistent. I attacked the credibility of your argument, not you personally. If you will refer back to previous posts, you can read my arguments and rebut them accordingly. I would hope that your future posts consist of arguments pertinent to the issue instead of personal attacks.
You're right about one thing, nobody changes their mind in this issue. But, if you have very valid reasons for your position as you claim, i wish you would post them instead of personal attacks, that way we could have a civilized argument that focuses on the issue.

Illuminate, i know that there is definately an emotional anguish with regard to a rape that i'll never be able to understand. I know that i cannot relate with any woman who tells me she aborted to try to take the pain away. I am truly sorry for their pain, and i realize my position seems extremely insensitive.
However, i can tell you that emotional decisions are the worst ones, and it's likely that the woman who decided to abort will have another pain in the back of her mind for the rest of her life.
I can also tell you that you don't make policy on emotional choices. The fact of the matter is, a baby conceived out of rape is no different from a baby naturally conceived. To value their lives differently is irrational, hippocritical, and wrong. I HAVE to make this argument because it is undeniable. Once again, i'm sorry if it is insensitive.

And these are your personal views. Just like mine is that a embryo is not a child, its an embryo. So your "valid" points to you are not "valid" points to me. Thats not illogical or inconsistent.

How would you like me to call your religion invalid and inconsistent? Not very nice, it is your BELIEF afterall.

And my apologies to you if you feel that I personally attacked you. Its just that today's society is not doing anything for abused children. I just cant imagine what it would be like if more children were born to uncaring parents.

Forcing women to have rape babies is not the answer. And yes, your position is very insensitive. Its undeniable to you, but mabye not for others.

Also, I am done with this post. I'm not going to change your mind, nor you I. Agree to disagree?

It's obvious that everyone here is very passionate, but there has been very little discussion about my original argument. If abortion is just a choice, then why can't we just say that rape is just a choice or stealing is just a choice? Please anwser this question, anybody, without lashing out on a different tangent. If i don't have the right to protect the unborn, then what right do i have to protect possible rape victims or private property? Can nothing be made illegal?
I would also like anybody to show me where i mentioned anything about religion in my arguments. Anywhere. Please point it out to me. thanks.
Illuminate, you claim that an embryo is not a child, but you don't offer any arguments for that position. How is it different from a child? What qualities do born children posess that embryos do not?
Chelktty, you have a very personal investment in this topic that i admittedly do not have, and it is obvious from your arguments. You are very plugged in to 'what it's like for a woman in that situation,' and you argue that because of that situation, women should be able to act in any way they want. However, if in fact the unborn are morally inviolable human beings, there is absolutely no situation short of her own life being in danger that should permit her taking its life.
Here is a hypothetical situation, what if the rape victim woke up nine months later and the baby was already born? Would she still have the right to kill him/her because it is "painful" to her to have it around? I guarantee that you would say no, which implies that there is a difference between that baby that was born, and the one in the womb.
Please tell me the difference, that's all i ask.

Embryo:
1.
a. An organism in its early stages of development, especially before it has reached a distinctively recognizable form.
b. An organism at any time before full development, birth, or hatching.
2.
a. The fertilized eff of a vertebrate animal following cleavage.
b. In humans, the prefetal product of conception from implantation through the eight week of development.

Thats from dictionary.com. I suppose what children have that embryos do not would um everything..? Its a collection of cells that would never survive outside the womb.

No more questions to me jrkiv! I get too tempted to respond.. This is seriously the last visit.

Lol illuminate, i know what you mean about being tempted, there is something about this topic that is so divisive.

As for your post i have a few problems. I could draw up a list of faculties that adults have that children do not, especially infants. Not the least of these is self-awareness and the ability to value one-self and others. Simply put adults are just children that are further developed, likewise, infants and children are just embryos that are further developed. Can you draw a line that says when a child has developed enough to be human? If so what is your rationale? (these questions arent necessarily to you illuminate, but for anybody) It must be based on something more deeply rooted than perception.
It is tempting to say embryos are not children just because of physical appearance, ie. they don't look like children, hence they are not children until they do look like them.
The problem is that humans are a little smarter than that. The fact that they are human embryos IS exactly what makes them human. It doesn't matter how many cells are in a human being, i bet professional football players have twice as many cells as i do, does that make them any more human?
Essentially the argument that embryo's cannot be considered human is one born of perception. We perceive a difference on the outside, but when you remove all appearances and you look at everybody without regard to how far they have developed, there is only one thing that everybody has in common, and that is a human genetic code.
The second part of your answer is much more interesting. Embryos cannot survive outside of the womb, therefore they aren't human. This is a tempting qualifier for humanity, but when it is applied universally, as any necessary condition for humanity must be, then it excludes some people that i don't think we want to exclude.
Many diabetics are insulin dependant and would die without it, technically, they are dependant on insulin for survival the same way an unborn baby is dependant on its mother. Are diabetics not human? Are they not entitled to life? Another example would be someone hooked up to a life-support machine. Is that person not human because he is dependant on something else to survive? Surely most would answer no to these questions, which makes the fetus' incapacity to survive irrelevant. It is still a human that is incapable to survive, that is the important thing.
In this society that supposedly values inclusion and tolerance, I would hope that we define human life in a way that does not exclude anyone. There is nothing more precious than human life, it is unique in all of nature. Philosopher Immanuel Kant believed that humans are ends in and of themselves, they are inviolable and need no other reason for preservation other than the fact that they are human. Shouldn't we be trying to define humanity in a way that preserves all of it and recognizes its value instead of the other way around? I think that we should, and i hope that is the direction our country takes.

Jrk, again you are missing the point. As Illum pointed out, an embryo is just that. An EMBRYO it's not a human. Not yet. It doesn't have a mind, it cannot think, it is not a developed body. I think we've both tried to make it clear that partial birth abortion is wrong. What we are saying is that in the first few weeks when the embryo is not developed that abortion is and should remain legal.
Yes I do carry invested interest in this issue. I do have a personal history with it. You do not. I am simply stating that you should walk a mile in another person's shoes before labeling them as a "murderer". I'm with Illum on this, I won't be back in this thread either.
I think you are incredibly insensitive in regard to talking to people who have actually been there and done that when you have not. I pray that your wife, sister or friend never has to face this difficult matter, only to have you look them dead in the face and tell them they are a murderer.

Chelktty, once again, just because you have had an abortion and you think i'm being insensitive isn't going to make me let up on my arguments. I think you were insensitive to your unborn baby, you seem to only want sympathy for yourself, what about the life that is missing from planet earth? So how about some introspection instead of lashing out ... again. I want this discussion to be about objective qualifiers for humanity, not about "how you are feeling." I'm not trying to judge your actions, i'm trying to figure out what the definitiion of human is and why the unborn are not in that category. That's it, if you post again, make that the subject and nothing else.
As for your argument it makes me think that you didn't read my previous post. You say "embryos minds aren't developed and they cannot think," how is that different from an infant? Can newborn babies think? Since they cannot are they not human?
You say an embryo doesn't have a developed body. That argument is born from perception. At what point is its body developed? 5 months? 7 months? Seriously, what objective point in time does a baby develop to where it's human? What are you using to make that determination, how the baby looks? Come on we are all smarter than that, those are all extremely subjective and have no basis in anything concrete. Once again, your position is the baby isn't human because it doesn't look human. The bodies and minds of infants are much less developed than those of adults, once again, are infants not human because the gap in development? I would imagine you would say no.
Chelktt, to define what a human is you have to use something more concrete than the way something looks. Your contention that the unborn cannot think and lack self-awareness is a good start, and it is a possible sufficient condition for humanity, but to hold that position you also have to say that infants and small children are not human. They cannot think either.
As for you not coming back to this thread, that's fine. I want an intellectual discussion bound by objectivity, not one that is emotionally charged that repeats subjective arguments that have already been rebutted. Can anybody out there provide an objective reason why the unborn are not human and infants are?

question......what if the child you found out was going to be mentally handycapped, would you have the baby?

i personally feel that bringing a gifted child into this world is wrong, it isn't fair to child, and a burdon to us.

The Embryo debate goes on and on. If you are pregnant and decide to carry to term and have the baby and you have complications, the doctor will tell you not to think of the child as a child until it is actually born, they tell you to think of it as an embryo/ foetus. This helps to (supposedly) lessen the pain if you miscarry or have a still-born. So if you miscarry it is a embryo and if you abort it is an unformed child? That is hypocrisy.

Where do you draw the line for abortions? Someone said a few weeks, some other people say a few months, some say no abortions at all. The people who say not at all I ask: What do you think of the contraceptive, the Inter-Uterine Device (IUD)? This works (as I understand it) by stopping a fertilized egg from implanting in the uterus wall. The egg is already fertilized and the IUD causes an abortion of the egg. Does this fertilized egg count as a "Human Being"? Are IUD's murder?

wow, interesting point.

being a partiall supporter of abortion i do not feel that and IUD is murder.

but that leaves a very intriguing question.....

thanks

The IUD is a form of abortion, not a form of contraceptive. It does not prevent the union of a sperm and egg, it prevents the fertilized egg (which at that point is a unique individual that will never come again) from attaching to the uterine wall, therefore causing its death. To say abortion is OK as long as it happens as soon as possible after conception is naieve. At what point is it wrong then? There is no objective answer to this question, the one and only 'line in the sand' with regard to human life is conception. Period. Any other line that some would try to draw is completely arbitrary and is based on appearances rather than facts.
Spudmaster, you make an interesting point with regard to the abortion of disabled babies. However, if you hold that abortion is wrong unless the child is disabled, then you are basically saying that a disability absolves a person's intrinsic right to life. If that is the case, what is to stop us from euthenizing disabled people who have already been born?

I have a heriditary disease in my family which can only be passed on from one generation to the next you cannot contract the disease any other way. As testing my eggs for the disease prior to having IVF of any form is illegal in my country, I am faced with the prospect of having every pregnancy I carry tested for the disease and if it is positive I must choose to either abort the child or give birth to that diseased child.

While I am not considering having children for a few years yet, it is something that bothers me when I do think about it. I have watched a lot of my family suffer due to this disease and am now watching it slowly kill my mother. I know that there will not likely be a cure within my lifetime.

My choice may seem simple to some people, have every child that I concieve without any testing and let "God" decide who has the disease and who doesn't. or: Have the child and hope for a cure before it is too late.

However, I am hopeful that when it comes time for me to make a decision about my children, I can simply have IVF and only have healthy eggs used for the process. If this is not available to me, then I must consider the prospect of having numerous abortions until i can naturally conceive a heathly baby.

If I choose to abort any diseased foetus's, I belive that I am doing it for the benfit of that child, but also for the benifit of society in trying to stop the spread of this disease.

However, that is not my point, my point is that we need things like IVF and egg/ sperm cell testing as well as better contraception if you really want to stop abortions. I don't think you can ever fully eradicate them, but if other options are available to people they will use them. (I know you say adoption is another option, but I dont think I could carry a baby to term just to give it away)

I also have a question for the "right to life" people here. If you have an ectopic pregnancy (ectpoic is egg jammed in the falopian tubes) that threatens the life of the mother, is it wrong to abort that feotus?

I have said that if my life was threatened, I would choose to abort.

Schmiggens, I'm sorry to hear about this disease that is spreading through your family. And I can completely understand where you're coming from.

The baby threatens the mother, huh?? Does the mother choose new life over her own, or end the life of the innocent to save herself? Is there any possibility of moving the embryo from the tube to the vaginal wall surgically? Maybe things like that need to be explored and researched?

I've been of the opinion that true human life begins at conception. Not before, and definitely not sometime after. I guess with that question, we have to make a decision on whether we can live with knowing that we ended a life before it ever experienced the world beyond the womb.

We either accept that we are ending the life of an individual, regardless of whether or not it could survive for any length of time on it's own outside the womb, or we dismiss that life as something less than it is, which diminishes the value on our own lives fundamentally.

I just thought this was interesting. This is the view on Abortions from the Qor'an, certainly different to what Christians, etc preach.

Human features do not appear in the foetus before eighty days of pregnancy, because the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) said: “The creation of any one of you is put together in his mother’s womb for forty days, then he becomes a ‘alaqah (a piece of thick coagulated blood) for a similar period, then he becomes like a chewed piece of flesh for a similar period, then Allaah sends an angel who is enjoined to write down four things, and it is said to him: ‘Write down his deeds, his provision, his lifespan and whether he is doomed for Hell or destined for Paradise. Then the soul is breathed into him.” Narrated by al-Bukhaari, 3208.

This hadeeth indicates that a human being goes through a number of stages during pregnancy.

For forty days he is a nutfah (mixed drops of male and female sexual discharge, for the next forty days he is a ‘alaqah (a piece of thick coagulated blood), then for forty days he is a mudghah (a lump of chewed flesh), then the soul is breathed into him after one hundred and twenty days have passed.

Human features begin to appear at the mudghah stage, not before that, because Allaah says (interpretation of the meaning):

“O mankind! If you are in doubt about the Resurrection, then verily, We have created you (i.e. Adam) from dust, then from a Nutfah (mixed drops of male and female sexual discharge, i.e. the offspring of Adam), then from a clot (a piece of thick coagulated blood) then from a little lump of flesh — some formed and some unformed (as in the case of miscarriage) — that We may make (it) clear to you (i.e. to show you Our Power and Ability to do what We will)”

[al-Mu’minoon 23:5]

Allaah described the mudghah as being formed and unformed. What is meant by formed is that there appear on the embryo traces of how the body will look, such as the head, limbs, etc.

I got pregnant with my first child when I was 17 years old. Every person I told said "What are you going to do?" I was pissed. Like what do you think I'm going to do? I'm having a baby. Yea, it would have been really easy to take my medical card to the nearest clinic and had my pregnancy terminated but what the hell? I was having sex. I knew the consequences. I made a grown up decision that I was mature enough to have sex so I knew it was my job to have my baby. Today my son is 5 years old and he is the brightest 5 year old I ever met. His teachers are amazed at how smart he is!! I think one day my little man will change the world. What if I would have taken the easy way out? I would have never known him. I wouldn't have ever seen his face. 9 months later I somehow got pregnant again. What did I do? Did I kill my child so that I didn't have to have 2 children at the age of 19? NO!!! My 2nd son is my angel baby! Both of my children mean the world to me and after having my first baby I KNEW that there was nothing that could prevent me from loving him or being a good mother. I know so many people who have abortions because they aren't ready or they already have a kid and dont want another "right now". Okay, how is someone going to pick and choose thier kids like that?? How can someone say "well not right now< maybe later"? Maybe later?? Maybe that child will never be born again. Abortion makes me sick. I could have terminated both of my pregnancys and never looked back and figured "hey it wasnt a baby". They were babies. They were humans. They are both little boys. They are at school today. They are perfect.

By the way, yes I was young, I wasn't even out of high school. Today I almost have my degree in Surgical Technology. You can do it, anybody can do it. There is NO excuse.

Great posts slenderspender, so many people don't realize that all babies are not the same, every child (and person) whether born or unborn is unique in all the world and will NEVER come again. An aborted child does not come back in the form of a later baby that was carried to term, an aborted child was its own individual that missed its single chance for life.
I'm happy for your decision and your wonderful children!

schimiggens, i just don't know what to say here, i just have to write anything or something, why didn't anybody reply to your post of islamic view point?? didn't anybody understand or is it because that its an ISLAMIC point\?? for crying out loud, would anybody comment, i am not that bright or educated to comment, not that religious also, so i didn't knew these things also.....for all i know that a man can only use a condom for protected sex, but only after the aproval of the female, she has as much as right as the male for sexual satisfaction, if she wants to have a baby the male must consider her feelings, and if he is not using any protective material for safe sex, he must have her permission to ejeculate outside the vagina during intercourse, i hope its sort of relevant here, and i do hope that i am saying the right things here. islam is not as difficult as people has made it, and a person doesn't have to be a fanatic of islam to lead a good and happy islamic life, in my opinon too much bad publicity for ISLAM just becuase of that incident 9/11, not all fingers of a hand are the same size [get it,?? not every finger is the same even if its of the same hand]

p.s.
i am so sad of the health problem in your family, i just cant imagine, never did i hear anything like this, i am just truly sorry.

Hi. I'm quite interested in this topic as I had always been pro choice. Then I got pregnant (it was planned) and saw an ultrasound of my baby at 5 weeks, just 1 week after missing my period. After seeing that little heart beating and my babies arms and legs, the eyes, nose and mouth, and its independent movement, something happened to me. All those years that I had fought for pro choice hit me in the gut like a pound of lard.

Being pregnant, you get these books that shows actual photos (not ultrasounds) of what the baby looks like in the womb at each week. And, it is very fascinating. It went over how the fetus/embryo is developing and showed how all the functions of the body were beginning to work. It was then that I'd realized personally that 'pro choice' shouldn't be a choice unless rape, incest or the mother's life is in danger. Why? Because, this fetus, this embryo is a living human being with all the functions of a human being.

My argument for pro choice centered around a woman's right to do with her body as she pleases, because it is her body after all. And, this embryo or fetus is nothing more than a cluster of cells so the woman should be allowed the choice because it doesn't have any rights. But, I realized how shallow my argument was only after seeing this baby growing inside of me, and realizing this was more than a mass of multiplying cells.

I'm not for making abortions illegal. It's the wrong way to combat the issue. Instead, I believe that education is of paramount importance, as well as pre abortion ultrasounds and counseling on what effects this choice is going to have on the woman's life pre and post abortion, and what the woman will need to be prepared to deal with. It also should explain what happens during an abortion to the baby inside. It isn't just putting it to sleep in a humane way. People don't realize this. Abortion is a decision that, once carried out, cannot be reversed, so knowing all the facts before making the decision should be a top priority.

Education of what the embryonic stages are and what happens at each stage of the fetus' life should get as much coverage as birth control, STDs and other topics in the sex education classes that are a part of teenager's education. I also think that birth control methods rates of success for preventing pregnancy and STDs be of utmost importance as well. Pictures and techniques of abortions should be discussed in detail too, as well as alternatives such as adoption. Although it would be difficult for a teacher to discuss these types of things, I don't advocate any bias being put on the education on either side by the teacher, but this education alone would allow for full knowledge of exactly what an abortion would entail and how it would affect the fetus growing inside a woman.

Peace,
Clarity

Clarify, welcome to INReview.

I think that the idea of "late term" abortions is barbaric. Why not have a c-section and give the child a chance? I think that is the only option. I just can not grasp how anyone would allow late term abortions.

Welcome, Clarify!

I think that people should be very careful and that sex ed. should be tought more thoroughly in school. If a woman DOES get pregnant, and she really is unfit to raise the child or there may be something very wrong with the child that would threaten its health, then it should be up to her to decide if she really wants to have an abortion. I agree with Fuscia about the late term abortions, though. I don't see why anyone would wait that long to decide, anyway. I think that there should be a lot more schooling involved, but to outlaw abortion is going too far. If for some reason I ever got pregnant, I believe I would have the baby, but I still am pro-choice for women who are not me.

abortion is killin a child. It doesn't matter who the child comes from, its an innocent little thing, cus i know if my mother had an abortion when she was pregnant with me, i wouldn't be alive right now but i'm gald i am. Everyody has a chance to live, you lived so give the child a chance. But there are good reasons why abortions should be legal because it is a choice and the most important freedom is the freedom of choice, but abortion is definetly murder.

I'm not sure I really believe that early pregnancies are murder, but I personally would not have an abortion. Yet, all the same, I am a strong supporter of choice.

Thanks

grrr this whole topic will never die. this is 2 completly different sides that are pulling both ways. it is pointless to try and convert others to your beliefs on both sides. i see both sides and this really needs to be resolved in a way that both win......but for the most part the "anti- abortion' ists" are nasty about this and will never respect the other side at all.....this problem will never end

Like Carlin said...

"The longer you listen to this abortion debate, the more you hear the phrase "sanctity of life," "sanctity of life." You believe in it? Personally, I think it's a bunch of ***. I mean, life is sacred? Who said so? God? Hey, if you read history, you realize that God is one of the leading causes of death.

If everything that ever lived is dead, and everything that's alive is gonna die, where does the sacred part come in?

How come when it's with us, it's an 'abortion', and when it's with chickens it's an 'omelet'?

People say life begins at conception, I say life began about a billion years ago and it's a continuous process. "



-HECK!

Well, I'm going to tack on 9 months to my age then, stupid doctors got my birthday wrong.

-HECK!

This is one of those chicken and the egg debates that will never be solved b/c it has no answer. We should just leave it as the person's choice. I personally would never do that, ever. But, hey, some people think it's okay, it's THEIR choice. I don't think the government or some shmoe off the street has any right to tell me I have no choice, or that my choice is right or wrong.

I'd like to "abort" a few people

NikiTa, unless you're a vegetarian, your argument is pretty pointless.

Unfertalised eggs, fair enough... but most of us eat them once they're hatched anyway. And they're delicious with lettice, cheese and mayo on some nice white bread.

Though now we'll just get into the difference between animals and humans... so... well... I'll just shut up.

if people actually ate the aborted fetuses, abortion could possibly be justified

imho

There are places you can eat aborted fetuses. I remember I posted something about it a year or so back.

For a long time a fetus was considered to be a growth that was part of the woman. Now, however, DNA has shown that a fetus is an individual human with a unique DNA signature.

A guy named Peterson was recently given a death sentence because he threw his pregnant wife into a lake. For some reason the unborn child had already been named Conner. Peterson was found guilty of murdering Conner while he was still in the womb. Conner was a real person in the eyes of the law.

At the point a fetus developes an individual DNA it is a human being. Helpless and dependent it may well be, but still.. It is wrong to kill a fellow human being... SELF defense is the ONLY defense. Especially now with the DNA evidence.

I don't think anyone ever doubted the DNA of a fetus would be different to that of the mother's. It's unthinkable that DNA would change half-way through a pregnancy... but does it make it a living thing? I mean, kill me now, I still have DNA, and that DNA'll live on for a while after I'm dead. It could be argued that it's pretty much the same before birth...

I think in the eyes of the law it is regarded a human being when could possibly live outside of the womb, like early in third trimester.

-HECK!

While the fetus does have individual DNA, it is still very much apart of the mother and needs her to survive. Moreover, it cannot survive outside of the womb. It's a symbiosis. Not to be crude, and I don't mean to make a serious comparison here, but it's also the borderline definition of a parasite.

-HECK!

Ah, I understand now, Writer. I do like HECK's point, though: when it can live by itself outside the womb, it most certainly is human... before then the whole thing is quite iffy.

I'd say the topic could be debated without religious or emotional input, however I doubt that'll happen. A lot of people base their entire life and beliefs on religion, and its hard to discount that sometimes.

You know what bothers me the most and maybe you haven't picked up on it because I haven't just come out and said it.

How many women are in this thread of late...protesting for their right to an abortion.
Huh?

And this is what bothers both the pro choice and pro life communities...but even more so...the pro choice communities.

A bunch of men want to make decisions on whether or not I should be allowed to terminate the life of my baby. More than that, a bunch of men brought that 'choice' to us in the first place. And it's a male dominated society who wants to force their will and manner upon the woman by saying...."I got you pregnant. yeah, I admit it took me 30 seconds and a beer, but now that you is pregnant, how's about you go down to that place down yonder and fix yourself up so I don't have to deal with havin no baby."

And so, poor Mary Sue goes down to the doctor's office where 9 times out of 10 it will be some man who wants to suck her baby out with a suction like cup.

And then we got men in Congress, men in this thread, comedians, a multibillion dollar industry where doctors make millions of dollars sucking the brains out of some woman's baby.

And we got fellers here who pretend to even understand ovulation, menses, conception and embryos and feel competent enough to even talk about such issues.

Now, I will admit....I didn't know what a prostate was until about 3 years ago when someone I know had prostate cancer. I always thought prostate meant the position men assume when they are in my presence...but oh, well...

My point is...I may not know the workings of the male reproduction system, but I do not go around mandating what doctors and lawyers and congress do about their sperm, sperm count, or their wankers.
So, why is it that men feel so compelled to make laws, create medical industries and can joke about something that is so very important to women?

I'd never ask a woman to have an abortion on my behalf, and want a kid more than anything at the moment. My own child I want. I would never want to abort him/her unless it was 100% necessary.

But what you're missing is that pro-lifers are dictating other people's actions, not their own. I'm not making anyone get an abortion. Truth me told, I look down on people who get abortions. But its not for me to say yay or nay on that one. I guess people who are pro-life are either looking out for the baby (who may be unwanted and treated like crap throughout their life) or their own religious ideals. I really don't know half the time...

But your comment about you not wanting to mandate anything to do with men, (and that they should stay out of women's affairs also)... why do you think anybody (male or female) should be allowed to mandate what women can or can't do to do with their fetus? I know plenty of pro-choice women, myself. There must be a whole bunch of them, otherwise the abortion issue wouldn't be an issue at all.

Okay...here is my take on this issue. Not that anyone gives a crap....but oh well...live with it.

Number one: Men can scream and shout about how its not just a woman's right to have an abortion and they are just as much a part of it..yada yada yada...as if this happens the majority of the time..NOT. The MAJORITY of the time, the guy would just as much see it done as to not have to pay for the child for the rest of its life. AND...I'll be damned if a male dominated society should tell a woman what to do with her body....and yes gentleman....its her body!

Number two: The woman having the abortion....(lets take out the fact whether or not she/he used protection, its besides the point after the fact)...chances are they/she/he couldnt afford to have the child anyways...and what? We dont have enough unwanted kids in the world already? Look at all the kids in the world needing homes. Where are all these pro-lifers for these kids? They scream and shout murder...yet, are they opening their homes to these children? Doesnt seem so does it...considering the millions of parentless children.

Number three: Well, one and two should be plenty.

Mys I'm damn glad to see you

-HECK!

Yeah Mystic, been too long.

Hey G, should I post more Carlin about the abortion issue? He said something about the pro-lifers wanting to adopt crack babies...?

BTW- did you clean out your PM box?

-HECK!

I did!

Carlin's always good, but I can see why many don't appreciate his humour

Mystic, it's good to have you posting again, and with that boldness. It's been missed.

A one month old baby can survive outside of the womb. Obviously it can't walk down to the store and buy food, but it doesn't need a cord running from the mother for constant sustinance and it doesn't breath ambiotic fluid.

Abortion as birth control is totally moronic. A chick shouldn't get freely knocked up then flush the baby out. There has to be some responsibility.

As far as law goes, it shortly after conception the fetus has an identity, why is our 'birthday' after we are 'born'? I tell you what, when I was 20 I would have loved to get those 9 months and speed up the process.

-HECK!